FOX "Fox News Sunday with Chris Wallace" - Transcript: Islamic State

Interview

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ROBERTS: We heard earlier from the White House, for what does Congress think about the president's plan to defeat ISIS and what role will they play in the weeks and months ahead. Joining us now from South Carolina's Republican Senator Lindsey Graham and here in the studio with me Rhode Island Senator Jack Reed, a Democrat. Senator Graham, let's start with you. Do you have any faith that the president's plan is going to work?

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, R-SC, ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Not much. There's probably a pony in that interview you did with Denis McDonough, but at the end of the day ISIL has to be encouraged about what was just said. When the White House tells the world we say what we mean and we do what we say, nobody believes that anymore. This is a turning point in the war in terror. We're fighting a terrorist army, not an organization. It's going to take an army to beat an army. And this idea we'll never have any boots on the ground to defeat them in Syria is fantasy. And all this has come home to roost over the last three years of incompetent decisions, so to destroy ISIL, what I was told or what I heard in your interview won't even come close to destroy ISIL. It's delusional in the way they approach this.

ROBERTS: Senator Reed, some tough words there. What do you say?

SEN. JACK REED, D-RI, ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Now, the president has proposed a comprehensive plan that recognizes this has to be ultimately the efforts of the local regional powers, particularly the Sunni government, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Republic. Also, the United Arab Emirates, rather. And Iraq particularly. And he is willing to use American airpower and American training efforts to empower these countries, but it's their fight. As Dennis pointed out, this is a battle within the Sunni community about where they're going.

ROBERTS: We know the plan, we know the plan, but will it work?

REED: I think the plan has great potential to work. First of all, there is the U.S. forces, airpower. Second with the cooperation of the Saudis, we're going to be training, and it's going to be done by the Department of Defense, military personnel, Syrians, to go back into Syria. Lindsey and I both support that effort. Then we're going to be hopefully backing up the Iraqis as they start re-claiming their territory, putting pressure on ISIL to either move forces back to Iraq to defend the territory that they have captured, or to pull back and let us take more Iraqi territory back.

So I think the plan is the best possible one, because it recognizes it's not just a full military struggle, it's also a political struggle.

ROBERTS: It is clearly a political struggle, in addition to a military struggle because you have to have an inclusive Iraqi government.

REED: Absolutely.

ROBERTS: That doesn't operate the way the Maliki government did, but Senator Graham, when it comes to Iraqi forces, Free Syrian Army rebels there, do you have any faith that they'll be up to the task in doing what needs to be done to defeat ISIS, ISIL? Whatever you want to call it?

GRAHAM: The first thing I want to tell the American people from my point of view, it is our fight. It is not just their fight. This is a radical Islamic army, that's pushing the theory of a master religion, not a master race like the Nazis. This is not about bringing a few people to justice who behead the innocent in a brutal fashion. It's about protecting millions of people throughout the world from a radical Islamic army, they're intending to come here. So, I will not let this president suggest to the American people we can outsource our security and this is not about our safety. There is no way in hell you can form an army on the ground to go into Syria, to destroy ISIL without a substantial American component. And to destroy ISIL, you have to kill or capture their leaders, take the territory they hold back, cut off their financing and destroy their capability to regenerate. This is a war we're fighting, it is not a counterterrorism operation, this is not Somalia, this is not Yemen, this is a turning point in the war on terror. Our strategy will fail yet again. This president needs to rise to the occasion before we all get killed back here at home.

ROBERTS: All right. So, Senator Reed, Senator Graham is clearly saying there has to be an American combat contingent here to fight this. Will there have to be U.S. combat forces, special operators, something, maybe not large divisions, maneuvering divisions, but some component of American fighting forces to get this done?

REED: We have to mobilize the local forces on the ground, because we've found, I think, for the last ten years that the most effective fighting force on the ground ultimately is those indigenous troops, those local troops who are fighting for their own country, for their own future. If we make this an American fight, the Iraqis, the Saudis would be gladly step back and let us do as much as we can. That's what they did after the invasion of Iraq. We have to empower them, but they have to carry the fight to the enemy. This is a fight within the Sunni community, it's a fight that they have to win for their own self-interests, and we have to make it clear that that's the case. So our effort, and we can do this very effectively is to leverage our power, which is airpower, intelligence collectors, training. We'll be training with some of these units? Perhaps, trainers? Perhaps, but the idea of putting American combat brigades on the ground to fight the fight that is ultimately about the future of these countries and their success, I don't think that's the right approach.

And the other fact we have to recognize is there are multiple threats coming out of this area. There's the old al Qaeda, who is still trying to send individuals into the United States. There are thousands of lone wolves who could come back here, so the idea that ISIL itself is the only sort of thing we have to fear on attacks on the homeland is not accurate.

ROBERTS: Senator Graham, what do you say to the idea, which is exactly the flip side of your argument that if you do make this an American fight, you'll only attract more people to join ISIS, that the best way to handle this is for the indigenous forces to take back their own territory and kick these thugs out?

GRAHAM: Apparently nobody has been listening to what Senator McCain and I have been saying for the last three years. We said train the Free Syrian Army so they can take this fight on. Instead of training the Free Syrian Army, the president overruled his entire national security team and abandoned the Free Syrian Army. We're talking about an army now, not a real (ph) organization. 31,000 is the best guess, holding territory in Iraq and Syria the size of Indiana. And for anybody to suggest that we can do this with airpower alone or this is like imminent Somali is disingenuous and delusional. I want a regional coalition, I want the Free Syrian Army in the fight, I want Arab countries in the fight, but here's what I'm tired of hearing from this administration and my friends on the other side and within my party, that this is somehow easy and really not our fight. Name one Arab army you could put together anytime soon to deal with a terrorist army of over 30,000 without a substantial American commitment. Not the 82nd Airborne, but intelligence, Special Forces, to go in there and dig these guys out. I am tired of hearing from this administration how easy this is going to be, when it's going to be hard and the consequences of losing my friend, is if they survive our best shot, this is the last best chance, to knock him out, then they will open the gates of hell to spill out on the world. This is not a Sunni versus Sunni problem, this is ISIL versus mankind.

ROBERTS: Senator Graham unfortunately is not fired up this morning. Senator Reed, we have to leave it there.

REED: Well, let me just say -- that no one is suggesting this is going to be easy. But we are suggesting the best ways to do it is have the most people who are in the region with our help, airpower, training, et cetera. And one of the dichotomies here is, everyone is talking about, well, we don't need no boots on the ground, but we're going to have to put a lot of Americans on the ground. We have to be very clear.

ROBERTS: Senator Reed -- Senator Reed, Senator Graham, thank you so much for joining us this morning. I really appreciate it.

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