MSNBC Hardball - Transcript
MSNBC Hardball - Transcript
4/20/2005
BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT
CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: Republicans on the House Ethics Committee have agreed in principle to open an investigation into allegations against Congressman Tom DeLay.
And the Senate Foreign Relations Committee delays its vote on the confirmation of John Bolton, President Bush's nominee for ambassador to the U.N., as Bolton comes under bipartisan scrutiny for reports he intimidated and berated former colleagues.
Let's play HARDBALL.
Good evening. I'm Chris Matthews.
Political battles are heating up in Washington, as Republicans on the House Ethics Committee agree in principle to launch an investigation into allegations against House Majority Leader Tom DeLay. We will get to that issue quickly.
But, first, John Bolton is in trouble over alleged past misconduct. Republican Senator George Voinovich of Ohio handed Democrats a temporary victory, as they postponed the votes on Bolton's nomination for U.S. ambassador to the U.N.
Senator John Thune is a Republican from South Dakota. Senator Jon Corzine is a Democrat from New Jersey.
Senator Thune, you're first.
What do you make of the Bolton nomination being delayed, the confirmation vote, for two or three weeks now?
REP. JOHN THUNE ®, SOUTH DAKOTA: I think it's a delay. They will work through these issues and my guess is that, ultimately, if his nomination does get reported to the floor, he will be confirmed.
MATTHEWS: He will be.
Senator Corzine.
SEN. JON CORZINE (D), NEW JERSEY: Too close to call.
If there are more revelations about difficulties with staff and how he's handled people, I think you'll get other people voting against him in Foreign Relations. But I think it is going to be fact-based.
MATTHEWS: What of this-what of this graphic description of an aid contract worker being chased down a hall in Russia by the nominee, and he -banging on her door? I mean, I don't know the details, except the allegations are public now. It seems almost like, carry on, Mr. Ambassador. I mean, what do we make of this?
THUNE: Well, I think there is a lot of anecdotal stuff out there.
But I think...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Why is that not valid, to look at anecdotal?
THUNE: Well, I think it's a part of the total record.
But, as Jon said, I think this will be fact-based. I think that we have to look at these nominees in terms of their experience, their record of accomplishment and their qualifications to do the job. That is a part of it.
MATTHEWS: Right.
THUNE: And that's being reviewed.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: We have had tough-ass bureaucrats, administrators in our government, right, really tough guys.
CORZINE: Like TV commentators.
MATTHEWS: Well, no. Well...
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: This is conversation.
But, you know, you've had people like J. Edgar Hoover. You had people like Joe Califano, known to be really tough with employees, keeping them working. Is that what it's about here, or is it the possible manipulation of information the government is generating about foreign policy that is being manipulated for ideological reasons by a tough boss, Bolton in this case?
CORZINE: There are a number of us-and I'm sure John would disagree with this-that are uncomfortable with the Bolton nomination in general.
MATTHEWS: Because of policy.
(CROSSTALK)
CORZINE: For policy reasons. Are we comfortable with him as the representative in an institution that he has really shown disdain for, at least discomfort with?
Then there is this concern that information was, if not manipulated, at least framed in a way that oversold cases, and particularly as it relates to Iraq. And then now there is the question of whether the individual has the diplomatic skills, if you will, to deal in a complex organization, where some diplomacy is probably a good idea.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Well, wait. But do you think it's appropriate for a United States member, a representative to the U.N., to be too sweet to those other members when they have often tried to jam us?
CORZINE: Look, I think Jeane Kirkpatrick...
MATTHEWS: She was tough. Moynihan was tough.
CORZINE: Patrick Moynihan were great representatives.
But they were also people who could sit down in a room and negotiate and not run away people.
MATTHEWS: Right.
CORZINE: Just on the power of their personality and how they dealt with people interpersonally. They had strong views, but they were able to convey them.
MATTHEWS: Right.
Senator Thune, when are you looking for a U.N. ambassador-let's do a little poll, like McLaughlin used to do, one to 10. Let's say Eleanor Roosevelt in a one in terms of niceness. She likes all Third World people in the old days, right? She loved the U.N. And Bob Novak at the other end at 10.
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: Where would you like to see a U.S. ambassador come from politically? Would you like to have-say they are all a bunch of Third World bozos, the way Novak used to describe them, and treat them like that, or be, oh, gee, I just love this body; everybody here is wonderful?
MATTHEWS: Where do you want to come out on this?
THUNE: Well, I think you chose an interesting yardstick.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Is he somewhere in the middle there?
THUNE: Well, I think he is.
And I-but I frankly,...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: I think he is more Novakian myself.
THUNE: Well, if you're looking at it, he is going to be more on that end of the spectrum.
But the reality is, what we need today I think at the U.N. is somebody who is reform-minded, somebody who isn't afraid to ruffle a few feathers. There have been problems at the U.N. And I think that these questions about his style are probably-you know, those are-if are you a reform-minded person, and you come in, you're going to make some people unhappy. And I think you have to try and differentiate, distinguish those things...
MATTHEWS: Right.
THUNE: ... from legitimate issues that have been raised.
MATTHEWS: Suppose you were hiring a new chief of staff as a new senator and you were looking for someone to-or A.A., we used to call them, when we were humbler in the old days. I had that title.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: And had you to pick someone. And you heard, God, there was one person who said he browbeat them. The other one said they chased her down the hall, banged on her door, demanded documents, jammed documents under doors to be signed or whatever. Would you say, you know, that is my kind of a guy? Would you say, no, I got to have-that is a red flag for me?
THUNE: I think you have to look at issues of conduct as they relate to the level of professionalism that a person brings to the job. If it's because that person is demanding and they are making people work hard and that's-that's probably OK.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: That is not the charge here. The charge here is, he is forcing people to do things they don't want to do.
THUNE: And those are issues that are being reviewed and looked at.
But I think, again, if you look at his record, he has been confirmed previously. And he is a guy who shakes things up. And I think the U.N. needs that.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: You're senior here, Senator. If the Senate Foreign Relations Committee fails to come out with a majority report for this nomination, in other words, some Republicans are off on this thing, would the Senate still take it up? Or does the Senate procedure require you don't take it up?
CORZINE: If it is a tie, it can be referred to the floor. If it is not-if it is a negative vote, then it will not be referred to the floor, if I understand procedure properly.
MATTHEWS: Is that how you understand it?
THUNE: I think so. And I think what they are doing right now is, they are buying some time.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Would you vote for a nominee who was rejected by the committee?
THUNE: If it's a 9-9 tie.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: How about if they rejected 10-8 or something like that?
THUNE: Well, then, he won't come to the floor, unless he is discharged.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: And you wouldn't vote to discharge, would you?
THUNE: I think in that case, the committee-the committee is a part of the structure and the process of vetting these candidates.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: The president would live with the rejection.
THUNE: I believe that he would live with it. That's correct.
MATTHEWS: Bottom line, if he gets rejected, it's because of character and bad behavior on the job beforehand or is it ideology?
THUNE: Well, it depends on who you talk to. If you talk to some of the Democrats on the committee, it's probably going to be some policy, ideological issues. Folks on our side I don't think have problems with where he is on policy or ideology or the fact that he is taking an approach and a style to the U.N. that is much needed at the U.N.
But some of these other issues that create questions for members, that is a different matter.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Senator, you voted against the authorization for war with Iraq, right?
CORZINE: Right.
MATTHEWS: Do you think this is a vote on a fact of a guy who is as far out as you can get in this administration? If you go through all the ideologues and hard-liners and neocons in the administration, he is the guy that wanted to expand the axis of evil to six countries. He was throwing in Cuba, Libya, Syria. This guy is a hard-liner. Is that what is at issue here?
CORZINE: Well, it is.
MATTHEWS: The world will see it that way.
CORZINE: It would be for Jon Corzine to vote on his nomination. I agree with Senator Thune. There will be people who vote against him on principle with regard to how he approaches...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: So, if he was Mother Teresa at the workplace, you would still vote against him?
CORZINE: I would vote against him.
And, by the way, I think there is another issue here. And I think this is the tougher one. I don't think anybody has been accountable for the preparation of going to war.
MATTHEWS: Right.
CORZINE: And this fellow was right in the midst of it.
MATTHEWS: Well, George Tenet got removed. He left rather abruptly.
Didn't he pay a price?
CORZINE: That is the closest thing. But then he got the Medal of Freedom Award shortly thereafter.
MATTHEWS: Yes. I think Colin Powell is still getting hosannas for his testimony.
CORZINE: I think that there is...
MATTHEWS: He is. The press, everybody loves Colin Powell. Nobody holds it against him, what he did.
CORZINE: I think some of the promotions that are going on are a little difficult. And when you have the most aggressive advocate, I think somebody ought to ask those questions.
MATTHEWS: If Dick Cheney came up for confirmation right now, after his record of coming on every Sunday saying they got nuclear weapons, would you vote for his confirmation as vice president?
CORZINE: I think you know how I would handle that one, Chris.
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: Let me ask about the other body, as they say on the Hill, the House of Representatives. The leader of the Republicans in the House is now under investigation by the full Ethics Committee. Republicans have joined Democrats late today in deciding to investigate, to call a subcommittee to do the work. Do you think that is justified or is that just political pressure on the Republicans and they buckled?
THUNE: Well, I think that there is a process. And the process needs to work. The House Ethics Committee...
MATTHEWS: Well, you were a House member.
THUNE: I was a House member.
MATTHEWS: Do you think it should be investigated?
THUNE: Well, I think that-I haven't been privy to all the information that the Ethics Committee has to look at. But I think that the Ethics Committee has a role and a responsibility. They need to perform it, and that this will all be handled in an appropriate way in the House.
But it is a matter to be dealt with in the House. But I think that the attacks, a lot of the attacks that are being leveled is because the Democrats in the House and, for that matter, in the Senate, have not talked about an agenda. They don't have an agenda.
MATTHEWS: Right. No. I think the Democrats have an agenda. Get rid of DeLay.
(CROSSTALK)
THUNE: Well, that and shut down the Senate and stop judicial nominees.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Is that a fair shot, that the Democrats...
(CROSSTALK)
CORZINE: That is not.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Well, let's stay on this. I know that is a favorite topic. But let's stay on this question. Do you think the House Democrats are so feeble in terms of their own agenda that they would rather just focus on trashing DeLay?
CORZINE: No. No. They would love to have an agenda. The rules of the House don't allow them to bring up much of any of the things that they would like to propose. Certainly have an agenda...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: You mean, they would really like to propose the reform of Social Security, but nobody will let them?
CORZINE: No, no.
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: They are dying to stay in the weeds on that. Come on.
CORZINE: What they would like to do is keep the concept of Social Security in place.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
CORZINE: Which I think is an affirmative action.
But, you know, there is no desire on the part of Democrats to slow down the Senate. Just as much as John would like to see the transportation trust fund reauthorized, I would like to see it. We have got jobs in New Jersey. We want built building highways and bridges.
MATTHEWS: I want to come back and talk about the filibuster, because I think it's a hot issue. We grew up with "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington." It's part of the American tradition.
But there is also another tradition that is called the Constitution. If the president submits a name for a judicial appointment, he should get a no or a yes.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Well, we will talk about that in a minute.
But let me ask you about DeLay. Do you believe, Senator Thune-you're a Republican-that the press, especially "The New York Times," has been beating the drum for Tom DeLay's head?
THUNE: I think that there is clearly a concerted effort on the part of the media.
MATTHEWS: Who?
THUNE: "The New York Times," "Post," others, to go after him. And they are not going to quit and they're not going to-until they have continued to churn this thing along. But I think the appropriate...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: This may be the only liberal idea still on the agenda at "The Washington Post," because I haven't noticed a lot of liberalism there.
But "The New York Times," you're right.
(CROSSTALK)
THUNE: Yes.
MATTHEWS: They have been beating the drum.
THUNE: Well, the appropriate thing, though, is, again, to let the process work there. There is an Ethics Committee. And they will do-they are very-the people who serve on that committee, it's bipartisan. They will do diligence to make sure that the facts and all the information gets out there.
MATTHEWS: Can I ask you a personal question?
THUNE: Yes.
MATTHEWS: You sure?
THUNE: Well, I don't know.
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: Do you like Tom-do you like Tom DeLay?
THUNE: I think Tom DeLay has been a very effective whip. When I was a member of the House...
MATTHEWS: Yes.
THUNE: He could get the votes.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: I didn't ask that particular question. Do you like him?
THUNE: Well, do I like him? I think he has qualities that are admirable.
MATTHEWS: Can you give me a yes or no or the like part?
(CROSSTALK)
THUNE: Sure. Of course I like him. He's a colleague in the House.
I like all my colleagues. I like all my colleagues in the House.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: No, that doesn't help me here. I think he has a problem with members now, doesn't he?
THUNE: Well, I don't know. I think that he's got to answer.
MATTHEWS: He has been too tough.
THUNE: And he will. He will. And this is why this process has to move forward.
MATTHEWS: Do you think there is a class thing between him and Bush, that Bush is allowing a Texas barbecue here because he considers Tom DeLay a little lower-brow than him, not quite up to his cut? Do you think the Bushes are letting this guy drop on them? They don't seem very loyal to him.
(CROSSTALK)
THUNE: Well, I think that the-again, his effectiveness is going to be measured by what he can get through the House. And, if you look at the record of...
MATTHEWS: He's been great.
THUNE: ... accomplishment in the House, they get things done.
MATTHEWS: That's why I'm surprised-why does the president of the United States not thank Tom DeLay for all the hard work he did for him?
THUNE: I think the administration appreciates the good work that he does in the House.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: ... the people in the big house and he is Simon Legree. He is out there whipping the slaves, but he doesn't get any credit for it.
CORZINE: Chris, sometimes people do good things, and then they have some bad faults.
MATTHEWS: Oh.
(CROSSTALK)
CORZINE: Maybe they are just-maybe they are a little nervous with what they are going to find out, if you have this objective look at this.
MATTHEWS: So, like Nixon went to China, but covered up a break-in.
CORZINE: People have different parts of their personality.
MATTHEWS: You're clearly governor's material here.
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: We'll be right back with Senator Thune and Senator Corzine.
Plus, the latest from Rome, where a new pope, Benedict XVI, said mass for the first time since becoming pope.
You're watching HARDBALL, only on MSNBC.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: Coming up, will Republicans win the battle to kill the filibuster used by the Democrats to block judicial nominees? We're coming back with Senator John Thune and Senator Jon Corzine when HARDBALL returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
MATTHEWS: We are back with Senator John Thune of South Dakota. He's a Republican. Senator Corzine, he's a Democrat.
Let's take a look at what John McCain, the senator from Arizona, had to say here on HARDBALL a little more-about a week ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN ®, ARIZONA: I will vote against the nuclear option.
MATTHEWS: You will vote...
MCCAIN: Against the nuclear option.
MATTHEWS: Oh, you will?
MCCAIN: Yes.
MATTHEWS: So, you will vote with the Democrats?
MCCAIN: Yes, because I think we have got to sit down and work this thing out.
Look, we won't always be in the majority. I say to my conservative friends, some day there will be a liberal Democrat president and a liberal Democrat Congress. Why? Because history shows it goes back and forth.
MATTHEWS: Sure.
MCCAIN: I hope it's 100 years from now, but it will happen. And do we want a bunch of liberal judges approved by the Senate of the United States with 51 votes if the Democrats are in the majority?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: What do you make of that, Senator?
THUNE: Well, I think he is going to be the exception probably.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: You don't think there will be five or six votes on your side that say keep the filibuster?
THUNE: I think that, when people look at what we are talking about doing here and the fact that, for 200 years, we have had -- 214 years up until the last Congress, tradition, history, precedent...
MATTHEWS: Of?
THUNE: Of allowing judicial nominees and up-and-down vote...
MATTHEWS: An up-or-down vote.
THUNE: In the United States Senate, and what the Constitution requires, that that will win the day. I think we are right constitutionally.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Doesn't the Constitution-doesn't the Constitution tell the Senate you have a job to say yes or no to a nominee? You have to say yes or no? You can't just sit on it?
CORZINE: The Constitution provides for the Senate to make its rules. The Senate has made rules, which were approved at the start of this session, that allow for the right of debate. And that has been a part of the Constitution from the beginning.
MATTHEWS: Well, debate to what point?
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: To increase the information you all have or to kill a nomination?
CORZINE: It is to respect the rights of minorities and to make sure that there isn't an abuse of presidential power.
MATTHEWS: What are the rights of a majority? The American people vote for a Republican president. They give a majority of the Republicans in the Senate, and yet those majorities can't confirm a judge.
(CROSSTALK)
CORZINE: Chris, we have had checks and balances in this system, both for good and bad, but allowing for a minority to be able to represent itself.
And, by the way, when you're talking about a lifetime appointment, I think it's reasonable that you have full vetting and that minority rights ought to be expressed. And there have been-there have been filibusters.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Is that a veto? Is that what you're asking for, a veto?
CORZINE: I think that you ought to be able to have to get a supermajority.
MATTHEWS: Sixty votes.
CORZINE: For a purpose of a lifetime appointment.
MATTHEWS: You're certain, Senator?
THUNE: No nominee in the history of this country that has a majority support in the United States Senate has been denied confirmation and an up-and-down vote, zero, none.
CORZINE: There's been a filibuster on Abe Fortas.
(CROSSTALK)
CORZINE: And a lot of constitutional lawyers will talk about different ways.
(CROSSTALK)
THUNE: There were ethical issues involved there. That was a bipartisan filibuster. And that judge did not have majority support.
CORZINE: But it was a filibuster.
(CROSSTALK)
THUNE: These nominees-these nominees will have 54, 55, 56 votes for confirmation in the Senate. It is without precedent in American history, what's happening.
MATTHEWS: OK, thank you very much for coming over tonight.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Senator John Thune of South Dakota and Senator Jon Corzine of New Jersey.
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