MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

Joining me now is U.S. senator Dick Durbin of Illinois. I want to read
something from you, which is very impressive, and it`s in the op-ed pages
of "The Chicago Tribune." Quote, "What holds us back are political
organizations that are well-funded, well-organized and determined to resist
even reasonable limitations. There`s a close political parallel between
the gridlock in Washington on dealing with our economy and national debt
and the eerie silence in Congress as the list of horrific gun crimes grows
by the day."
Senator Durbin, thank you. I know you`ve got a good heart on this, as well
as a good head about fiscal matters. What`s wrong with the Congress when
it comes to protecting, ensuring the domestic tranquility?

SEN. RICHARD DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: Well, there`s a legitimate concern
about our 2nd Amendment, Chris. You understand that part.
But there`s also a very strong political force that is trying to push
forward, primarily for the dealers and manufacturers, an agenda that`ll
sell more firearms and more sophisticated firearms, more expensive
firearms, and that has really dominated the scene.
If you asked who is the head of the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms division
of the Department of Justice, you`d have to learn, unfortunately, that for
literally years, there`s not been a head. The NRA and gun lobbyists
successfully even stopped the basic organization in charge of enforcement
of our gun laws in America.

MATTHEWS: You know, when the late Charlton Heston would run that ad for
the NRA, he`d wave some old musket near and say "from my cold dead hands,"
which I thought was pretty, well, awful to begin with, the "cold dead
hands," the absolute nature of that demand that they hold onto the gun.
But he never waved an AK-47 or an AK-15 in the air. He never showed a 30-
round clip in the air with a big banana on it. He never did that because
people don`t think of that as really American revolution era. They think
about that as state-of-the-art mass killing.

DURBIN: Of course it is. And those are military weapons, military assault
weapons. And you know, thank goodness, law enforcement turned up in
Newtown when it did or the list of children who had been killed...

MATTHEWS: Yes.

DURBIN: ... and teachers would have been much, much longer. Think about
what happened out in Aurora, Colorado. That man stood in front of a
crowded theater, spraying that audience with one of these assault weapons,
and the only thing that stopped him emptying the 100 cartridges that he had
to shoot was it jammed. If it hadn`t jammed, the death toll would have
been even higher.

MATTHEWS: Well, you know, it`s not hopeless, though. You talked about the
2nd Amendment. But look, back in 1934, when we had "Machine Gun" Kelly and
all the guys out in Chicago, we had the whole Prohibition era encouraging a
certain kind of crime, rum running, et cetera -- here`s the question. Back
then, the Congress had the guts to outlaw automatic weapons, machine guns.
Basically, they did. They were heavily regulated, heavily regulated,
almost to the point of you don`t find them around.
Here`s the question. Why can`t Congress do the same thing with
semiautomatics? I know we`ve got millions of them, whatever -- can`t we
start to regulate? We don`t have to regulate a shotgun or a regular pistol
with a revolver or anything, but if you go into the semiautomatic level,
why don`t we say that`s like the automatic level? Just go with that?

DURBIN: I can tell you this, Chris...

MATTHEWS: The courts would have to approve it because they approved the
earlier one, didn`t they? Isn`t there a precedent?

DURBIN: They did. They did. And even after the Heller decision, the
Supreme Court told us there were reasonable limits that Congress could
impose when it came to firearms.
There are two groups that I think are essential to the success of this
effort.

MATTHEWS: OK.

DURBIN: First, sportsmen and hunters. And let me tell you, Chris, I know
plenty of them in my family and all around downstate Illinois. They`re
good people. They`re good citizens. They hate what happened in Newtown,
Connecticut, as much as we do. We need them as part of this conversation.
And the second group that has to step up is law enforcement.

MATTHEWS: Right.

DURBIN: There was a time when they spoke out against these terrible
weapons of death. We need them again to be part of this conversation.

MATTHEWS: Well, I would ask why would anybody out there want the criminal
to be heavier armed than the policeman. He`s got a little 9-millimeter job
or a .38 police special, and somebody comes in with this assault rifle.
But let`s go back to the earlier (ph), the sportsmen. Do you think the
sportsmen you know and are organized in Illinois, for example -- do you
think they would support a limit on the size of -- the number of rounds in
a clip?

DURBIN: I think they would. And you look at the polls of sportsmen and
hunters, people who own guns for those purposes and self-defense,
overwhelmingly, they`re for reasonable limitations. You ask them point-
blank, Should we have a background check to make sure that unstable
individuals don`t get their hands on a firearm? And they say, Of course.
Why would we want that to happen?
There is a common ground here. But we need to hear their voices. Many are
speaking for them in Washington who really don`t understand their values.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about the comparison you drew because we`re -- I
hope we`re in the 11th hour of the fiscal crisis, fiscal cliff debates and
negotiations. Tell me about that parallel between the unwillingness to
deal with -- you very courageously supported Simpson-Bowles, and it seems
like people on the left and right have a hard time making those kind of
compromises.
How is that similar to what we`re dealing with in the gun issue?

DURBIN: Come on, Chris. You worked around here. You know how this works.
People go back to their home districts, and people in the gun lobbies will
say, Listen, we`ve got a scorecard here and we`re going to watch every
single vote, and you better be right, buddy. You better score an A, or
we`re going to come and defeat you in the next election.
Well, it`s the same mentality that drove the Grover Norquist pledge. You
pledge, I`ll be there with an A, no matter what. I can`t tell you how many
times I`ve looked at my colleagues in the eye after they`ve cast one of
these crazy votes on guns, and they just, you know, shrug their shoulders
and say, You know, I live in a pretty conservative area.
The honest answer is, even in conservative areas, people are sensible and
rational. And if we come up with something that`s reasonable, that doesn`t
inhibit basic sportsmen and hunters and self-defense, we`re going to have
strong support across party lines.

MATTHEWS: Governor Adlai Stevenson of Illinois once said it`s the duty of
leaders to lead. Thank you very much, Dick Durbin. You`re a leader.
Thanks for joining us, and merry Christmas to you.

DURBIN: Thanks, Chris.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

Source