MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

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DEL. ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON (D), DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA: One thing, Mr. Chairman. We`ve been denied the right to have a witness... REP. DARRELL ISSA (R-CA), OVERSIGHT & GOVT. REFORM CMTE. CHAIR: The gentlelady... NORTON: I want to have... ISSA: The gentlelady... NORTON: ... the right to make a parliamentary inquiry! (END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, the chairman of that committee, Issa, Darrell Issa from California, who`s a Republican, defended the witness selection, all males on that first panel. Let`s listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ISSA: Since only yesterday, two days after what would be the appropriate time for the minority to name their witness request, we were given it. With the short notice, final schedule was determined based on the unusual circumstances of the minority not in a timely fashion submitting any valid request for any witnesses, even though on a daily basis, actually multiple times per day, the majority requested that. (END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, also with us now is U.S. Congresswoman Jackie Speier of California, who boycotted the hearing altogether. Let`s hear first from Delegate Norton, Eleanor Holmes Norton, who`s a friend of mine. Thank you, Congresswoman, for coming on. You were very strong today. When did you find out that they were going to be an -- it was almost like one of those cigarette hearings, where all the leaders of the tobacco companies shows up. We`re showing a picture of it now, all the men there. What -- when did you first realize this was going to be such a deadly visual for the guy holding these hearings?

NORTON: I realized it -- I realized it this morning when I saw our witness as she was there in the audience. We wanted her to be added to the panel. Here we had five men sitting across the line. To have one woman sitting there, apparently, the committee thought, would really have turned the tables on what they wanted to do because that woman would have talked about why contraceptives were important. And she would have told a very poignant story. Instead, they wanted to relitigate the health care law. They wanted to make this a hearing in the abstract on religious liberty, when, of course, there would have been no hearing in the first place except for the controversy about religious liberty and contraceptives last week, which by the way, we settled to the satisfaction of most of the American people. You can`t get a better win-win than what the president found. You can get your contraceptives. You won`t have to pay for them any more than you would have had if you hadn`t worked for a religious-affiliated institution.

MATTHEWS: Right.

NORTON: And the religious-affiliated institution doesn`t have to pay for it. I mean, what more could we have done?

MATTHEWS: I thought -- by the way, I happen to agree with you, which makes it easy to do this show tonight. I thought the issue was resolved last Friday to the satisfaction of people like Catholic Charities and Sister Keehan, who are most active in the good work of religious organizations. Let me go to Congresswoman Speier about this. You`ve been very dramatic on this topic. You didn`t show up at all today. Tell me about when you got the word that Darrell Issa was going to run an all-male panel of witnesses on an issue of birth control.

REP. JACKIE SPEIER (D), CALIFORNIA: You know, Chris, it reminded me of what happened when we had an all-male U.S. Senate talking about sexual harassment with Anita Hill.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

SPEIER: That`s when American women just blew up and that was...

MATTHEWS: That was the year of the woman. SPEIER: ... the year of the woman for...

MATTHEWS: Right. SPEIER: ... elections across this country, more women elected that year than have been elected in all the years since then. But more importantly, you know, there was -- this was a sham hearing. It was a biased hearing. And there was not the opportunity to have a balanced discussion on it. And you know what else is very interesting? No one talked about vasectomies. Are vasectomies going to continue to be covered? It`s not an issue that the Catholic church wants to raise. But that`s a form of contraception. That`s covered.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you, while you`re still on -- this issue, I think men need a -- look, I think men and women have the same values. I think they have different perspectives. I think that`s fair. And women, who can bear children, who can get pregnant, especially when they don`t want to get pregnant, and live in that fear sometimes -- talk about that, why men ought to hear from women on this topic of contraception, ought to hear from it a lot. Tell me what -- just give me the basics here because I think that the Republicans and a lot of the men on the Democratic side don`t get the perspective women offer, deserve, and are now demanding. (CROSSTALK)

NORTON: ... the women were necessary, too, because when they denied us the right to have a woman on the panel, they then added -- this was my parliamentary point. They added two witnesses to the panel, to the second panel. Both of these were women, and they were from religiously-affiliated institutions, which, of course, reinforced the men on that second panel. And they were dealing with the optics then. They weren`t dealing with the issue.

MATTHEWS: Yes. I got you. Congresswoman Speier, your thoughts about it. Give me some education, why women -- let`s do it again and do it dramatically, if you wish. You`ve been involved in this as a woman. You know all about these issue of abortions rights and things like that. Men are involved secondhand. Or I`m not sure I`m going to say it right, but women can give birth, men can`t. That`s as simple as it gets, I gets.

SPEIER: Well, that`s right. And I think what is most disturbing is that, you know, contraception is something that is used by women for many purposes besides not getting pregnant. It`s used for purposes of endometriosis. It`s used for uterine cancer, ovarian cancer, for acne, for migraine headaches. And it`s almost like we are treated like we`re chattel when this issue comes up, that somehow, it is going to be given to us. We`re being told what we can do and what we can`t do. And I must say, I`m a deeply devout Catholic. I lector (ph) in my local parish. I respect the church`s position on this issue. But once you become secular in your activities -- the largest health care system in this country, Ascencion (ph), has a venture capital fund. Now, where do we go? Do we allow the venture fund to also espouse their beliefs and prevent their employees...

MATTHEWS: I know.

SPEIER: ... from accessing contraception?

MATTHEWS: I`m with you. I don`t know if it matters, but I am with you. And I`m so glad liberal Catholics are speaking out. Earlier today -- people like yourself. Earlier today, Andrea Mitchell asked Rick Santorum, who`s running for president -- his benefactor, rather, Foster Friess, about his candidate`s comments on social issues, including women in combat and contraception. Now, this is going to rock some people, what you hear now. You probably haven`t heard it in 50 years. Now you`re going to hear it from Rick Santorum`s big guy here, Foster. Let`s listen to something from the old days here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) FOSTER FRIESS, RICK SANTORUM SUPPORTER: And this contraceptive thing, my gosh, it`s so -- it`s such inexpensive. You know, back in my days, they used Bayer aspirin for contraceptions. The gals put it between their knees, and it wasn`t that costly. ANDREA MITCHELL, HOST, "ANDREA MITCHELL REPORTS": Excuse me, I`m just trying to catch my breath from that. (END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, I can`t catch my breath. I don`t think that was ever the thought process among thinking people, but he said the old days, Congresswoman Norton. What do you make of a guy who`s actually a big shot, backing a guy for president, who talks like he`s -- who? Who is this guy?

NORTON: Well, you know, the last thing women need is to be insulted on this issue. Most women use contraceptives, even most Catholic women. We ought to tread lightly when we`re talking about something that is important to women`s health as contraceptives. But the way they wanted to avoid the issue altogether is just have no women there. And they expected us to sit there and listen to it and ask our questions in our usual way, when, in fact, it seemed to me we had to make more of a statement about the exclusion of women from an issue that affects primarily women.

MATTHEWS: Have you ever walked out of a -- Congresswoman, have you ever walked out of a hearing before this?

NORTON: Never. And I`ve been in Congress more than 20 years. But never have I seen such high-handed dealings with the other side. Remember, they refused our witness, and then decided who was qualified to be the minority witness. That`s -- nobody does that. No chairman does that. So he overreached in a very long way, and he insulted the committee. He insulted the House. We don`t even -- even in this polarized House, do business in that grossly unfair way.

MATTHEWS: Let me go back to Congresswoman Speier. And again, I respect your views so much on this because of your -- the fact that you are who you are. And I want to ask you this. I didn`t put that on lightly, what Foster Friess said. He is a major spokesman now for -- for former senator Santorum. He`s out there a lot all the time. And he is now representing a candidate, Santorum, who said it would be fine for him if states outlawed the sale of birth control. I mean, you`re talking about a guy from the Cro Magnon era in terms of politics. And there he has his guy up there making a joke about women. I mean, talk about an insulting comment, as Congresswoman Norton -- that was insulting, clearly. What do you make of this that we`re still in a world where this is still going on, that point of view?

SPEIER: Well, the ignorance is really breathtaking. To say that contraception doesn`t cost a lot of money -- I mean, it costs from $60 to $100 a month for a prescription for birth control pills. Aspirin doesn`t cut it. And I just find it appalling that women are being thrown around like they`re pieces of property here. This really is taking us back in time to a point that I don`t think any of us want to go to. And in California, not only has this issue been legislated -- and I carried the legislation in California -- we`ve actually had a Supreme Court decision that said to Catholic Charities that when you are secular in activities, there is an overriding state interest to make sure that women do have the kinds of benefits relative to health care and that they are not discriminated against because of their gender.

MATTHEWS: Yes. I think it`s one of those "Render under Caesar, render unto God" things. I think the line is pretty clear. I think it was clarified -- as Eleanor Norton pointed out a moment ago, Congresswoman Norton, it was clarified on Friday. The line`s been drawn and I think it`s been done fairly. By the way, if any woman votes for Rick Santorum after that comment today by his number one spokesman, I`ll be surprised. I think if he doesn`t fix this thing within a few hours -- I`m talking to you, Rick Santorum. if you don`t fix this in a couple hours, you can kiss off all the women voters in this country, and a lot of men. Anyway, Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton of my District of Columbia neighborhood, thank you both for coming on. And U.S. Congresswoman Jackie Speier, thank you for coming on. Coming up here on HARDBALL: Michigan`s the first of Mitt Romney`s many home states. You know, he`s five homes he`s claiming right now. He`s like McCain, who couldn`t even count his homes. Anyway, getting much of his home state love? No. "Voter city" is not liking Romney right now. And if Romney can`t win in Michigan, Republicans will be looking around for that big, fat panic button and start pushing it. You`re watching HARDBALL, only on MSNBC.

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