MSNBC "The Ed Show" - Transcript

Interview

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SCHULTZ: Let"s turn now to Bernie Sanders of Vermont, independent senator, and also, Congresswoman Donna Edwards joining us tonight from Maryland.

Senator Sanders, how can the president expect the Congress to make a quick decision on $3.7 trillion in debt with very little deliberation? What do you make of it?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I), VERMONT: You can"t and you won"t. There are two separate issues. Number one, obviously we can"t default on our debt, it would be disaster for the country in one way or another, with Wall Street understanding how significant it is for them, we"re into the going to default on our debt.

SCHULTZ: Well--go ahead.

SANDERS: The second separate issue is how you move forward sensibly on deficit reduction.

In my view, this "gang of six" proposal is a disaster. It lowers the
tax rate very substantially for the wealthy, and it will make devastating -
this is not modification--devastating cuts in Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, education, nutrition. You name the program that our struggling, working class in this country desperately needs, it is going to be cut.

I would estimate if the "gang of six" proposal were ever to pass, that I will do my best to see that doesn"t happen. It would--

SCHULTZ: It would do--what?

SANDERS: It would be absolutely devastating to working families. We have to do everything we can to rally the American people to prevent it. You"re giving the Republicans about 90 percent of what they ever dreamed of.

SCHULTZ: Congressman Edwards, you signed on, along with other liberals in Congress, 77 of you got together and said: no cuts to the big three.
And this deal of the "gang of six" and what they"ve come up with, there would be no benefit cuts for five years, would exempt SSI for five years. But to chained CPI and how they do calculate inflation, consumer price index--would that change your position? Are you willing to go with the president on this and take your name off that list? Or are you going to stand strong and protect the big three.

Where do you stand tonight?

REP. DONNA EDWARDS (D), MARYLAND: Well, Ed, there"s nothing to go with, because what we got was we got a lot of verbiage about what could be done. But we are two weeks to defaulting on this nation"s obligations. It"s time for us to pass a debt ceiling increase.

And also, you know, to say to the American people and stand with the American people--by the polls you showed earlier, the American people want deficit reduction. They want a balanced approach. They want to make sure that they protect Medicare and Social Security and Medicaid--and I still stand by the letter that we sent to the president, and it wasn"t just liberals that want to protect these programs for the American people because they deserve it.

And especially while there are some out there who want to give away all kinds of tax loopholes and benefits to corporations, to big oil, to millionaires and billionaires, and then try to balance the budget on the backs of our seniors, working people and the disabled? It"s just not fair. The American people know it"s not fair.

And as I said before, this shouldn"t even be in the conversation.

SCHULTZ: OK. So, where are the allies that the president is going to be counting onto get this passed in the House? He may get it done in the Senate, but in the House, it"s really going to come down math-wise to many of you that signed that letter, whether you jump with the president or if you"re going to protect the big three.
What else could it be?

EDWARDS: Well, as I said, I think that both chambers right now, at least the Senate right now is working on a plan that would get us, you know, the cleanest possible debt ceiling increase so that we don"t default on our obligations.

SCHULTZ: OK.

EDWARDS: And we need to focus on that. I mean, it"s kind of ironic that this was thrown in, kind of at the last minute as a monkey wrench. But it is not ready for prime time. There is no legislative language.
There"s no committee action.

It"s time to--you know, take this off the table and use our two weeks to do the business of the American people.

SCHULTZ: Senator Sanders, it appears to me that the best available option right now for lefties in the country is what former President Clinton is talking about. Former president says that he would invoke the constitutional option to raise the nation"s debt ceiling without hesitation and force the courts to stop me to order--in order to prevent default.

I mean, if entitlements aren"t the problem what got us here with the wars, the tax cuts and big pharma, doesn"t this really offer up the best available option for liberals?

SANDERS: It"s an option. It"s one I think the president has indicated that he"s not sympathetic to it. But I think we can figure a way to pass and to raise the debt ceiling.

But I got to tell you something else, Ed. While we"re talking about Social Security, understand that if the "gang of six" proposal were to go through, we"re talking about immediate cuts to Social Security so that somebody today who"s 65, when they"re 75, would see $500 a year cut, when they"re 85, $1,000 a year cut, and there are more proposals in there to keep Social Security solvent for 75 years--which will mean even greater cuts in years to come.

This is devastating and we should not minimize what this proposal is about.

SCHULTZ: The sound bite played earlier, the president said here is where we are, we have a Democratic president. I mean, he is emphasizing to the independents and Republicans this is a moment they might not want to pass up, at the political cost of losing his base. I find it pretty amazing.
And what about the McConnell plan along with Harry Reid? I mean, he"s thinking that this is some kind of backup plan. Do you think that this has a chance in the Senate?

SANDERS: Yes, I do. I do. Look, you got to understand our friends in Wall Street and corporate America understand how devastating it would be to this country if we defaulted. They are now putting pressure on right wing Republicans and I think Republicans are hearing this message.
So, I think we are going to get through this immediate crisis and raise the debt ceiling.

But most importantly, what we need to do long term is engage the American people in long term deficit reduction and say you know what, we"re not going to lower the tax rate for the wealthy, we are going to ask them to pay their fair share of taxes, we"re going to do away with corporate loopholes, we"re going to take a hard look at military spending which has tripled since 1997.

There are fairways to do deficit reduction and this "gang of six" proposal is not one of them.

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