NBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript

Interview

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MR. GREGORY: Governor, Governor Barbour, this is the question that I posed at the beginning of the program. Is this, is this an ideologue? Is this just about ideology? Is it about union busting? Or is it about really getting serious about shared sacrifice?

GOV. HALEY BARBOUR (R-MS): Well, it's about budgets. It is about the fact that Wisconsin, like many states, is broke. And the idea is, "OK, let's make a very narrow agreement over wages and, and--for one year is going to solve the problem." Governor Walker understands, as every governor understands, it is not enough just to kick the can down the road to next year because these problems snowball. They cascade. And that's why it's critical to get ahold of this. For most states the, well, the pay...

MR. GREGORY: But he--but his argument is that the unions are so unreasonable, they won't ultimately make concessions. They've made the concession.

GOV. BARBOUR: For a year.
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MR. GREGORY: Yeah.

GOV. BARBOUR: That's the whole problem. They've got to change the system. About half the states in the country don't allow or limited--limit collective bargaining. The federal government doesn't have collective bargaining for wages, for health benefits. I mean, this--people act like this is some right, you know, that these are collective bargaining rights. There's no right to this under the Constitution.

MR. GREGORY: Lawrence O'Donnell, how do you read this?

MR. LAWRENCE O'DONNELL: Well, you know, one of the things I was struck by in your interview with the governor is, just to go back to a point, is that he said that he rejected, rejected the idea of sending in troublemakers to the demonstrations. That means the idea was discussed. That means someone in the governor's office said, "How about we send some people in there to cause physical trouble in these demonstrations?" And this governor thought about it, discussed it, rejected it. OK, he rejected it. But to say he rejected it and think, "Well, that's the end of it, that's a noncontroversial moment," it's quite shocking to think that there was a governor thinking about that.

GOV. BARBOUR: Well, Larry, you added the word physical. Nobody ever--you could talk about should you send people out there to talk to the employees?

MR. O'DONNELL: OK, let's, let's just--OK, I'll, I'll retract that. Let's just say troublemakers. This--it's, it's shocking to think the governor, among the things they were discussing was, "Should we send in troublemakers?" How long did you--would you have to discuss that?

MR. GREGORY: Let met bring in Congressman Cleaver. I mean, you were on this program last month after the shooting of Gabby Giffords. We talked about tone. We talked about inappropriate public discourse. And I want to show you some of the placards that have been used by demonstrators, pro-union supporters out there. They have cast the governor--this one here, "One dictator to go, one dictator down," talking about Hosni Mubarak. He has been compared to Hitler. We spent time on this program talking about the nonsense about Obama being a Muslim or not being born in America and asking Republicans if they reject that. Should that kind of discourse be rejected in this fight?

REP. EMANUEL CLEAVER (D-MO): Absolutely. It's inappropriate. It should be condemned, not only by people close to the governor, but by those of us who are observers. I think that's something that we've got to squash in, in this country. We've come to a, a, a, a point in this government discussion where, you know, one side says, "Anything goes to get my point across." And I, I think it would be certainly something that I would condemn. But, but, but it goes even further than that. We're not even involved in trying to solve the problems. One side proposes, the other side opposes. That's why we're not making progress. The--you know, the, the governor is saying here, you know, you know, "You come back, let's, let's prevent me laying off employees." If you--when, when the lion and the lamb lie down, if you look closely, when the lion gets up the lamb is missing. When the governor says, "Come back home," he's not saying, "Let's negotiate." He's saying, "Come back home so I can do what I want to do to the unions."

MR. GREGORY: Kim Strassel, I want, I want to bring you in on this. And the president said this was an assault on unions.

MS. KIM STRASSEL: Mm-hmm.

MR. GREGORY: He's then gone quiet. Back in 2007 on the campaign trail, this is what he said, if this were to ever come to pass.
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(Videotape, November 3, 2007)

PRES. OBAMA: And understand this. If American workers are being denied their right to organize and collectively bargain when I'm in the White House, I'll put on a comfortable pair of shoes myself, I'll walk on that picket line with you as president of the United States of America. Because workers deserve to know that somebody's standing in their corner.

(End videotape)

MR. GREGORY: So here he said it was an assault on unions. In the past he said, "I'll be out there walking with you." He's now gone silent. Meantime, he's trying to move to the center politically and try to create jobs. He's put himself in a difficult political situation here.

MS. STRASSEL: Well, as the governor says, he needs to have a pair of shoes on picketing around Washington, D.C., because federal workers are not allowed any of these collectively bargaining rights that he's talking about there.

Look, one of the problems here is that I think the problem for Democrats and unions in this is that it's not necessarily a winning issue here. What's going on in the states is a microcosm of the federal debate, and that is about fiscal responsibility right now. What these governors are saying--and it's Chris Christie in New Jersey, it's Scott Walker in Wisconsin, it's John Kasich in Ohio...

MR. GREGORY: But they're not going as far on collective bargaining, not in New Jersey, not in Indiana.

MS. STRASSEL: Right. But we're talking about the bigger issue about budgets...

MR. GREGORY: Mm-hmm.

MS. STRASSEL: ...and how you deal with budgets. You even have Democrats like Andrew Cuomo in New York saying, "When we look at these budgets, huge ballooning areas of these budgets are due to public sector union benefits, and we cannot touch them because of collective bargaining, because of these things. We need the flexibilities and tools to fix this." And so that's a, that's an argument that resonates with Americans. People are talking about trying to cast this as the middle--an assault on the middle class. It was middle-class taxpayers who elected these guys.

MR. GREGORY: Well, Richard Trumka...

MS. STRASSEL: They campaigned on it. They elected them, they put them in office to do this.

MR. GREGORY: ...is, is, is President Obama doing enough? Is he satisfying you?

MR. TRUMKA: Look, it's important for the president--for middle class voters to know that the president is on their side.

MR. GREGORY: Right.

MR. TRUMKA: But this isn't about President Obama.

MR. GREGORY: No, but I'm asking you whether he's doing enough.

MR. TRUMKA: This is about a governor--wait.

MR. GREGORY: You heard what he said in 2007.

MR. TRUMKA: This is about a governor...

MR. GREGORY: He'd be out there with you. He's not out there with you.

MR. TRUMKA: David, this is about a governor who's taken on nurses and EMTs...

MR. GREGORY: Mr. Trumka, but answer the question. I asked a very specific question. The president, in 2007 as a candidate, said, "If this ever happened, I'd be with you." Do you think he's with you?

MR. TRUMKA: I think, I think he's doing it the right way. He's not taking on workers like Scott Walker is...

MR. GREGORY: Hm.

MR. TRUMKA: ...and trying to take away their ability to come together and negotiate a middle class way of life. He stands for that. He's doing that.

MR. GREGORY: Could he be doing more?

MR. TRUMKA: He could--everybody could be doing more.

MR. GREGORY: Well, that's--but in this particular case.

I mean, Lawrence, I want to go back to the politics here. It is very difficult for a president who wants to move to the center to, before the cannon--you know, after it fired initially he said it's an assault on unions, then he's gone quiet. And now he's, he's, he's got unhappiness on the left and on the right, and he just wants to be more of a centrist guy right now.

MR. O'DONNELL: It would be interesting to see what his choice would be if he was in a second term.

MR. GREGORY: Hm.

MR. O'DONNELL: This is someone who won Wisconsin. He has to win Wisconsin again. There is chaos there right now. Politically, he doesn't know how this is going to play three months from now. If a large majority or significant majority of Wisconsin likes the outcome, whatever it is, a few months from now, that's where the president wants to be going into his re-election there.

MR. GREGORY: And, you know, talking about...

MR. O'DONNELL: So that's why he's staying out of it.

MR. GREGORY: Well, and I want to talk about the politics some more. Howard Fineman, in The Huffington Post, had an analysis about this and how, in many ways, this is about the GOP's attempts to win more governor seats around the country. He talks about it, "The Real Political Math in Wisconsin. What happened?" Why did Republicans only get 12 this last go-round? "Well, according to GOP strategists and Governor Haley Barbour of Mississippi - who chaired the [RGA] in 2010 - the power and money of public-employee unions was the reason. ...

"The GOP strategic aim is simple enough. If they can abolish union collective-bargaining rights, they can undermine the automatic payment of dues to the public-employee union treasuries. Shrinking those treasuries and reducing the union structure and membership will make it harder for Democrats ... to communicate directly with workers."

MR. TRUMKA: There it is.

GOV. BARBOUR: Now, that's what Howard said.

MR. GREGORY: Right, that's...(unintelligible).

GOV. BARBOUR: That's what Howard said.

MR. GREGORY: No, no, but...

GOV. BARBOUR: That's what Howard said.

MR. TRUMKA: Do you disagree with him?
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GOV. BARBOUR: Look, this is about--this is a state issue in a state where they've got serious budget problems because payroll pensions are such a huge part of the budget you got to deal with it, and you can't deal with it for one year. I have some...

MR. GREGORY: This is a national movement, I thought. I thought it was a national movement. OK.

GOV. BARBOUR: Let's talk about--you asked about the president.

MR. GREGORY: Yeah.

GOV. BARBOUR: The president is one of the greatest politicians in the history of the United States, and he--and he's quiet because he understands that most Americans know this has to be done.

MR. GREGORY: Congressman, where--hold on, let me get Congressman...

REP. CLEAVER: Let's sue him for breach of promise and move on. I mean, let's--you know, the reality is that the, the, the president needs to be in Washington dealing with a plethora of issues around the world, not the least of which is Libya.

But I want to go back to something that, that you said actually twice, Governor, and, and that is you said, you know, this is--would be a one-year agreement. The governor was just elected. He'll still be governor in a year. And, you know, the, the, the agreements that we have were not made by Gadhafi. They were made by people who sat down in a room and worked out a, worked out an agreement. And I think labor unions are saying, and, and public sector employees are saying, "OK, you know, maybe things have gotten out of balance. We'll, we'll, we'll reduce some things." The governor is saying, "I don't care." You know, "I want to crush the union."

MR. GREGORY: I want to, I want to get to a break. Richard Trumka, I want to ask you one thing, again, about the tone of the debate. You're one of the leading labor voices in the country. Do you condemn the hyperbole, the overstatements, comparisons to Hitler and dictators? Do you think that's wrong on the part of pro-union supporters?

MR. TRUMKA: We want to--I--look, we ought to--pro, anti-union, it doesn't matter.

MR. GREGORY: It's inappropriate.

MR. TRUMKA: We should be sitting down trying to create jobs. When--and look, if you think that the argument that you're doing in Wisconsin is winning, as you said, Kim, the polls show that every--Wisconsin, vast majority of the people think this governor has overreached. His popularity has gone down. They're saying to him, "Sit down and negotiate. Don't do what you've been doing." So he's losing. If that's the argument you're going to do this year or next year, it's a loser for, for anybody who advocates it.

MR. O'DONNELL: And I don't know why you fear democracy so much. You're saying that this is a temporary agreement. It's a, it's a result of democracy in Wisconsin. Republicans won Wisconsin, and, and the, and Republicans ran on this. And now they're doing this. If the idea remains popular, and if it has democratic support in Wisconsin, meaning support of the democracy of Wisconsin, why would you worry about leaving this agreement out there so that it--and allowing collective bargaining so that the--Wisconsin can democratically express itself in the future as being in favor or opposed to more or less government spending on workers?

GOV. BARBOUR: Well, Larry, it, it is precisely because I do believe in democracy. We had an election in 2010, and Wisconsin voted for a Republican governor, a Republican senator, two Republican Houses of the legislature, and they have determined this is the best way to go forward to get the budget of that state, in effect, which they were elected to do. Look at Indiana. In Indiana this was done six years ago by the governor. It has been very popular. Nobody put Mitch Daniels' picture with a, with a crosshair over his face like they're doing in Wisconsin. You know, if Sarah Palin, did that, you know...

MS. STRASSEL: Well...

GOV. BARBOUR: ...it would be the world coming to an end.

MR. GREGORY: All right, quick--Kim, quick point, and then I want to get to a break.

MS. STRASSEL: Well, actually, in fairness, I mean, Governor Daniels was--did get some blow-back when he did this six years ago.

MR. GREGORY: Yeah.

MS. STRASSEL: And his approval ratings did go down, but the problem--the question is, what happens in the end? People want to see balanced budgets. And what's interesting is, Governor Daniels is one of the few states, because he ended up with that flexibility in his budget to negotiate, he's had--been in the black for the past five or six years, even when other states have not.

MR. GREGORY: All right. Let me get a break in here. I want to talk a little bit about the budget woes here in Washington, as well as what's going on in the Middle East, right after this.

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MR. GREGORY: We are back with our roundtable.

Congressman Cleaver, I want to talk about the president's budget and the spending showdown here in Washington. We're actually not talking a great deal about the budget yet because there's this prospect of a government shutdown because Republicans, Democrats can't seem eye to--see eye to eye on spending for just the rest of this fiscal year. This is a statement that you put out about the president's budget. And I'll put it up on the screen.

"Rebuilding our economy," you wrote, "on the backs of the most vulnerable Americans is something I simply cannot accept. ...

"I understand that now is the time for us as a nation to sacrifice in order to protect our children from a certain amount of debt; however, I'm struggling to understand how this budget helps us best to achieve this critical goal. Cutting funding to programs that assist hardworking Americans, help families heat their homes, and expand access to graduate-level education seems to conflict with the notion of winning the future. We cannot win the future by leaving our most vulnerable behind."

Do we have the balance wrong as we approach spending this year and look ahead to the president's budget?

REP. CLEAVER: Absolutely. Let me, let me preface my comment on that by, by just saying, you know, disagreement does not equal disassociation or disaffection. And disagreement among friends is the insignia of a healthy relationship. We've, we've got to disagree with the president when we think that he's moving in a direction that's disturbing. But, at the same time, I do think that real cuts needs to be made. But, but let's keep in, in mind, you know, I think we're dangerously cutting. Ben Bernanke has warned Congress in, in a hearing that cavernous cuts could hurt what is a rickety recovery. And Goldman Sachs, in, in, in an analysis released last week, said that even if the proposed cuts are reduced to 25 billion for the first year and 50 billion for next year that it would still create a, a 1 percent cut in economic growth of the GDP.

MR. GREGORY: But, but, Lawrence, there is a stop-gap measure that looks like it'll head off a shutdown. But then the president's still going to have to engage on the fact that Republicans, Democrats are far apart on these huge cuts Republicans want for this year.

MR. O'DONNELL: They are. It looks like they're going to avoid this Friday's possible shutdown and, and have a two week extension. They seem to have agreed on that by John Boehner basically taking the cuts the president has identified in the future and saying, "Let's start doing them now." That, that's the cut package that they will include in their ongoing resolution. But the problem with this dialogue is, it all begins after our failure on recognizing what the top tax rate burdens should really be. And, and keeping them down has created this much more serious deficit situation going forward. We've been ignoring for years the reality of what has happened in the super rich level of income in this country. We should have several higher top tax brackets. It shouldn't stop at a couple of hundred thousand dollars. We have incomes, we have short-stops making $15 million who are paying the same tax rate as, you know, two UCLA married professors. This is outrageous. We have people on Wall Street in deals making $300 million in a day and they pay that same top tax rate as people making a couple of hundred thousand dollars. And so we're ignoring this massive revenue possibility in the high end of incomes in this country.

MR. GREGORY: And as this debate goes on, Kim, you can respond to that, but I also want to talk about another threat to the economy that is coming from the events that we're talking about in the Middle East. I thought this cartoon by Jim Margulies captured it, a syndicated cartoonist. "The price of liberty," he says in the cartoon, "is $5.00 a gallon." And we're talking about Libya, only 2 percent of the oil market, but very important in Europe.

MS. STRASSEL: Mm-hmm.

MR. GREGORY: And it's the speculation that causes folks to pay more for gas here. How does this imperil this economy?

MS. STRASSEL: No, that, that is the real problem, is speculation, at the moment. As you said, Libya is 3 percent of the oil market and you've already had the Saudis come out and say we can replace the oil that's not coming out of Libya. What you're seeing here is, is traders worried that this Arab revolt is going to spread to places like Saudi and they are building in some of that worry into the price. That's why you've seen the spike. This acts as a tax on the economy. You know, every time we--I think we import 7.5--or we use 7.5 billion barrels of oil a year, every time $10 a barrel price hike, that's a huge new tax on the economy. Now, some of this, by the way, I should point out, isn't just Libya and speculation. We're also seeing in here part of Ben Bernanke's quantitative easing and inflation working its way into oil prices as well.

GOV. BARBOUR: We're also...

MR. GREGORY: Yeah.

GOV. BARBOUR: We're also seeing, David, the administration's energy policy, which is driving down American oil production. I mean, the shutting down of the Gulf of Mexico, taking lands in Alaska off, the, the issues that they are raising. America's going to produce about 13 percent more domestic petroleum this year. Now, how is that in our interest at a time like this or at any other time?

MR. GREGORY: You, you talk about that in terms of energy policy as someone who may run for president. And we'll talk more about politics after the break. As you look at the Middle East, what concerns you about U.S. posture toward that region?

GOV. BARBOUR: Well, look, I'm one of these guys who believes, as Senator Vandenberg used to say, that in politics, it should stop at the water's edge when it comes to foreign policy. I'm not going to be critical of the administration, but I do think on their domestic energy policy, it is greatly compounding this problem. We're blowing past $3 a gallon, on our way to $4 a gallon, maybe Jim Margulies is right. Four dollar gasoline brought my state and a lot of places to their knees in 2008 before there ever was a meltdown on Wall Street.

MR. GREGORY: All right. Let me, let me get another break in here. We'll come back, talk politics for 2012 and what Wisconsin means for that and a couple of other topics, when we come back with our roundtable right after this.

(Announcements)

MR. GREGORY: We're back with our final moments with our roundtable. Everything has political implications. Let's talk about the politics. The news this week for 2012, Senator Thune has decided that he will not run for president, John Thune, from South Dakota. And you look at the Gallup Poll and here's the list, this crowded field. Huckabee and Romney look to be at the top. And there's Governor Barbour at 3 percent. And, Governor, as you look at this, and this--the field continues to be unsettled, how will you make the calculation about whether you'll run.

GOV. BARBOUR: I didn't know my family was that big, 3 percent. It's a, it's a very critical decision. It's a family decision in many ways. In fact, in most ways. But I'm not going to make a decision until April. I'm going to finish my legislature, get my job done, get my budget passed.

MR. GREGORY: But how do you decide--but how to make that calculation based on what you're seeing?

GOV. BARBOUR: Well...

MR. GREGORY: Because there seems to be a lot of late entries here.

GOV. BARBOUR: Whether or not anybody else runs is irrelevant to my decision. I'm going to make the decision based on things that I think. And I don't want to take everybody else's time going through all the things that I would have to think...

MR. GREGORY: Yeah.

GOV. BARBOUR: ...that I am thinking about.

MR. GREGORY: Richard Trumka, how do you assess that Republican field right now, who you'll be organizing against?

MR. TRUMKA: Well, they'll be a lot of them, probably.

MR. GREGORY: Yeah.

MR. TRUMKA: But...

MR. GREGORY: Is there a front-runner?

MR. TRUMKA: I, we'll...

MR. GREGORY: Do you, who's most formidable in your mind?

MR. TRUMKA: I don't know. I wouldn't go there. I wouldn't go there on either side, the Democrats or Republicans. That's a debate that needs to take place. But, you know, Governor Walker what he's done and people like him, governors like him, they've energized the working class voters. And that momentum that we've picked up, the demonstrations that you're seeing in Madison isn't just in Madison. They're around the country. And that momentum is going to continue on.

And, Haley, I hope you don't stake your whole campaign on taking away the right of workers to be able to earn a middle class income, because I don't think that's a winner for you at this time.

GOV. BARBOUR: Well, I want to stake my campaign on the right of taxpayers to be able to pay so that the state employees can keep their jobs and don't have to be laid off.

MR. GREGORY: Let, let, let me ask you...

MR. TRUMKA: Those state, those state, those state workers are taxpayers.

MR. GREGORY: Let me ask about, about, about health care, Lawrence O'Donnell. As Mike Huckabee, the former Arkansas governor, who has taken on Mitt Romney, this is what he said in the Associated, Associated Press, as they covered it. "Huckabee said Wednesday that potential White House rival Romney should offer an apologize for healthcare overhaul that he oversaw as Massachusetts governor." Quoting him, "I think it's not a killer for him, but he has to say either 'I love it,' `I hate it,' or, `Hey, I tried it, it didn't work and that's why I should say to you let's not do it nationally.'" He goes on, "He's got to figure out how he wants to deal with it. It's the 800-pound elephant in the room for him." Now, Romney has stood by it, but said it's something that the states should work out.

MR. O'DONNELL: Well, Huckabee is right in identifying this is what's wrong with the Romney candidacy. And, in fact, you can go down through the list and do that with pretty much every one of the possible Republican candidates, with the exception of Tim Pawlenty, who I think is the one who is going to start moving ahead because he has no serious negative. You have thoughtful Republicans starting to support him. The ideal candidate is a Midwesterner, and that usually is true for both parties because that's where the battleground states are. With Thune dropping out, Pawlenty becomes more important in the field. But Romney has the same--this is identical, virtually identical politically to the problem Hillary Clinton had going into that primary field, where she had to disown or own the vote in support of the Iraq war. This is much more serious. The, the, what, what Romney did on health care is much more difficult thing to overcome in the primaries. I don't think he can.

MS. STRASSEL: I think that's not, not alone. I actually, that's not the only issue. And I actually agree with Richard here that what is happening in Wisconsin is going to have very big implications for the, the primaries on both sides, and in particular in this case, because the other 800-pound gorilla in the room, besides health care, is fiscal responsibility.

MR. GREGORY: Right.

MS. STRASSEL: You see the president entirely focused on it at the moment. And this is going to play into Republican governors...

MR. GREGORY: And, Congressman...

MS. STRASSEL: ...in particular who are running and their record in the states.

MR. GREGORY: ...are, are Republicans running circles around Democrats and the president on the issue of fiscal responsibility, from the states to cutting in Washington? Is that how you view it?

REP. CLEAVER: No, absolutely not. The--what, what the Republicans are mistakenly doing is pushing cuts that will hurt the very people who voted for them. And when people realize what is happening to them and their families, there will be, I think, a great deal of buyers regret, and we'll look up and see that President Obama is surging again. To, to beat somebody, you got to run somebody. This is the only person that I'm endorsing to run against Barack Obama at the moment.

MR. GREGORY: Yeah. Really? You'd endorse Governor Barbour.

REP. CLEAVER: To run against Barack Obama.

MR. GREGORY: To run against him, OK.

REP. CLEAVER: You know, David...

MR. GREGORY: We're going to, we're going to have to leave it there. We're out of time. Thanks to all of you.

I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss an endorsement there.

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