NBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript

Interview

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We focus now on the battle over government spending that is taking place, as I mentioned, from Wisconsin to Washington and beyond. Joining me now two prominent voices in the Senate: the assistant majority Leader, Dick Durbin, the Democrat of Illinois, and Republican member of the Budget Committee, Lindsey Graham of South Carolina.

Welcome to both of you.

Senator Graham, I do want to start with you and just follow up on one point about what's happening in the Middle East. As Ambassador Rice suggested, so much concern about the nature of the crackdowns in certain countries now. Are you satisfied with any measure of consistency you see from the administration in terms of how they are using their influence against various countries?

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Well, the one, one suggestion I would make is we've been very inconsistent and too timid when it comes to Iran. They've done a good job in Egypt. I think we should have a policy of urging old friends to do better in replacing old enemies. So I'd like to see regime change in Libya. I'd like to see regime change in Iran. I think we need to be tougher on companies that do business with Iran. But, generally speaking, the administration, I think, has handled Egypt well and is trying to stay ahead of this when it comes to Jordan, Bahrain, and Saudi Arabia.

MR. GREGORY: All right. There's so much to get to on the budget. Senator Durbin, I want to go there immediately. It's interesting, here, here is the president's budget for next year, and yet the fight hasn't even started over this because Congress is still fighting about this year's money, funding the government for this year. A dramatic House vote over the weekend and here was a summary in The Washington Post, that I'll put up on the screen. "The House approves dramatic cuts in federal spending, 235-189. The Senate is expected" the Post goes on, "to take up its own version of the spending measure the first week of March, just before a March 4 deadline for when the current funding resolution expires. With Democrats pushing to keep spending at 2010 levels for the remainder of this year, the two sides begin a grueling negotiation process more than $61 billion apart."

Senator Durbin, are we heading towards some kind of government shutdown?

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): I certainly hope not, and we've made it clear from the start that that is the worst outcome. If we end up shutting down the government and calling into question whether we're going to meet our obligations for Social Security checks and paying our troops, then that is an absolute, utter failure. We can do better. And I think we need to sit down in a positive, constructive way and work out our differences. There are differences. But the starting point is that we know we need to cut spending, we know we need to live within our means. And we believe that we can find a way to do this for the remainder of this fiscal year.

MR. GREGORY: But how does this get resolved? Here was Senator Reid, the majority leader, Senator Graham, talking about the House, you know, passed their end of it and now there's not a lot of time to negotiate. Speaker Boehner saying, "Read my lips: We're going to cut spending," and this is how Senator Reid responded.

(Videotape, Thursday)

SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV): And now he's resorting to threats to do just that without any negotiations. That is not permissible. We will not stand for that. He's wrong.

(End videotape)

MR. GREGORY: Do you think we're headed toward a government shutdown?

SEN. GRAHAM: The only way we'll shut the government down is if our Democratic colleagues insist on keeping the federal government large and unsustainable. From 2008 to 2010 the federal government in non-defense discretionary spending grew about 24 percent. Very few people in America had that increase in their budgets. And if you count the stimulus, over 80 percent increase in spending. What I hope to happen is that we'll find a way to resolve this by reducing spending in a bipartisan fashion. The House members did exactly what they campaigned on. The Democratic House was fired because they spent too much. There will probably be a temporary CR, but it should have some spending cuts as a down payment on controlling the size of our federal government.

MR. GREGORY: But you're suggesting compromise, some spending cuts. You're suggesting Republican leaders in the House have got to be able to compromise because the Senate's not going to pass what they just passed.

SEN. GRAHAM: The, the, the, the only reason I'm suggesting is that we do a temporary CR for a week or two is we just don't have enough time. But I won't support a CR unless it has some spending cuts.

MR. GREGORY: Right.

SEN. GRAHAM: But I'm going to side with the House when it comes to getting back to 2008 spending levels. That's what they campaigned on. They're just doing what they promised the American people. And getting back to 2008 levels I think is a good start. And we got a lot more to do than just that.

MR. GREGORY: So, just so everybody knows, a CR is a continuing resolution, which is a way to fund the government for the rest of the year.

Senator Durbin, where do you see room for compromise here? Are, are your--you, as leaders, in, in--on the Democratic side in the Senate are going to have to, to move a bit on cutting dramatically government spending.

SEN. DURBIN: David, understand the starting point. We've already cut $41 billion below the president's budget for this fiscal year in this--the way we're currently funding our government. And now the question is: How much further should we go? And there are serious questions to be answered.

MR. GREGORY: But Democrats haven't actually cut anything. But, Senator, they haven't actually--you haven't actually cut anything because there was no budget last year.

SEN. DURBIN: Well that's wrong, David, we have.

MR. GREGORY: What cuts have you...

SEN. DURBIN: No, no, that's wrong.

MR. GREGORY: There's--the $41 billion is just less than the level that it was funded at before.

SEN. DURBIN: No, it's less than the amount asked for by the president for this year, $41 billion below it, and the House has gone $100 billion below it. And so let's be very candid, both sides have made cuts. The question is: What is the right thing to do at this moment? The deficit commission took a look at our economy and said, "Be careful. Make sure that you move towards fiscal solvency for the United States, but do it in a fashion that will not harm the growth of our economy." You can't reach a budget balance with 15 million Americans out of work. We need to invest in things that count: Education and training for our workers; innovation so that we have that kind of spark of creativity that creates new businesses and new jobs; and investment in the infrastructure of America, building things that are going to make us strong for generations to come.

MR. GREGORY: But...

SEN. DURBIN: If I have anything to fault with the House approach to it, I think they went too far in their cuts.

MR. GREGORY: Let me ask you about what is becoming a federal issue, and that is what's happening in Wisconsin. This was the scene on Friday in the rotunda in Madison as union workers were protesting the move by the governor of Wisconsin to demand a greater participation on unions in terms of pension contributions, as well as health care contributions, also trying to end collective bargaining in the state. And you see the response there. President Obama did an interview and weighed in on this. This is what he had to say.

(Videotape, Wednesday)

PRES. BARACK OBAMA: Some of what I've heard coming out of Wisconsin, where you're just making it harder for public employees to collectively bargain generally, seems like more of an assault on unions. And I think it's very important for us to understand that public employees, they're our neighbors, they're our friends.

(End videotape)

MR. GREGORY: Senator Graham, did the president do the right thing weighing in to this controversy?

SEN. GRAHAM: I think the president should be focusing on what we're doing in Washington. The president's budget this year is the highest level of spending as a nation--25.3 percent of GDP--since World War II. So that's not the number to use to get this place in, in, in fiscal sanity. We should be looking at the dollars we're actually spending. That's what the House did. But when the president talks about Wisconsin, I think that's--that really is inappropriate. The governor of Wisconsin is doing what he campaigned on. He said he would ask contributions from government employees for pension and for health care at a level that I think is reasonable. And he also put on the table renegotiating and reforming collective bargaining. He told me yesterday it takes 15 months to do a contract with government employees in Wisconsin. And so he's doing what he said. There was an election on his proposals, and he won, and he should be allowed to fulfill his mandate just like the House Republicans.

MR. GREGORY: Senator Durbin, is the White House, is the president, using his own campaign operation, an operation of supporters, to fuel protests in Wisconsin?

SEN. DURBIN: Let me tell you why what's happening in Wisconsin, just north of Illinois, goes way beyond the discussion of the Wisconsin budget. If you think this is just about money and the budget, then you might believe Cesar Chavez was just working to get a couple pennies more per pound for grapes or that Martin Luther King was really working for access to hotels and restaurants. There's a much bigger issue at stake here. For over 80 years in America, we have recognized the rights of our workers to freely gather together, collectively bargain, so that they could have fairness in the workplace and fairness in compensation. And that is what's at stake here. It goes way beyond this budget issue. This governor of Wisconsin is not setting out just to fix a budget, he's setting out to break a union. That is a major move in terms of American history. I believe the president should have weighed in. I think we should all weigh in and say, "Do the right thing for Wisconsin's budget, but do not destroy decades of work to establish the rights of workers to speak for themselves."

SEN. GRAHAM: David, if I could just add, this is a campaign flier I have--I don't know if you can see it--from the last election cycle where Wisconsin unions said, "If you elect this guy, Scott Walker, he's going to reform or limit collective bargaining." He was open about what he was going to do about contributions to pensions and retirement, and he told the people of Wisconsin, "I'm going to change collective bargaining because it is--impedes progress when it comes to education. It's too hard to fire anybody, it is too complicated. And I'm going to change that system." So, in a democracy, when you run on something, you do have an obligation to fulfill your promise. He didn't take anybody by surprise. He's doing exactly what he said. There was a referendum on this issue, and the unions lost. And the Democrats in Wisconsin should come back to Wisconsin to have votes.

MR. GREGORY: All right. Let me, let me take a break here. We're going to come back, talk more about the president's budget and the question of leadership in Washington on the biggest drivers of our nation's debt. More with Senators Durbin and Graham in just a moment.

(Announcements)

MR. GREGORY: Coming up, more with Senators Durbin and Graham. Can both parties come to an agreement on spending or will there be a government shutdown? Up next, after this brief commercial break.

(Announcements)

MR. GREGORY: We're back, joined again by Senators Dick Durbin and Lindsey Graham.

And, Senator Durbin, you mentioned the debt commission, the president's debt commission on which you served, and you supported its findings. They're out with an op-ed in The Washington Post today about the president's budget. And this is, in part, what they had to say. "To be sure, the president's budget doesn't go nearly far enough in addressing the nation's fiscal challenges. In fact, it goes nowhere close." This was a president, Senator Durbin, who said, during the transition, that we cannot kick the can down the road when it comes to entitlement spending, the biggest drivers of our nation's debt. And yet he chose not to do so in this budget. Why?

SEN. DURBIN: Well, let's give credit where it's due. The president's budget will free spending and, over the course of five years, is going to reduce our, our, our deficit by some $400 billion. We'll see domestic discretionary spending at the lowest level, as a percentage of GDP, since President Dwight David Eisenhower. It is a step in the right direction, and it's consistent with the first two years the deficit commission recommended. Now, as a member of the commission, I will tell you we went beyond that. We said, "After the first two years, we've got to have a 5 percent reduction in spending the first year, and then half of, of the cost of living increase reduction for the next seven years." So we do achieve more through the deficit commission.

Now, David, the good news is this: There are six of us, three Democrats and three Republicans still meeting, looking at the deficit commission as a template or as a goal, and trying to find a way to work together in a bipartisan fashion in the Senate to come up with a reasonable way to deal with this deficit. We can build on the president's budget into deeper cuts, but we need to put everything on the table, with the exception of Social Security, which I'd like to mention. Everything else needs to be on the table. The House, in their budget, just dealt with 12 percent and made a dramatic cut in our budget of 12 percent in domestic discretionary. I might say...

MR. GREGORY: But, but, but, Senator, it's--everything is not on the table. I mean, the point is you're talking about--you're heralding 12 percent of the budget. That's not where the big--that's not where the money is here when it comes to driving up the debt. You even said about the debt commission that the president probably doesn't want to wear that collar into the next election. I've talked to administration officials who say the strategy here is a political one: Get the Republicans to step forward first, make the big suggestions on where to cut entitlements, and then that could be used against them in the election.

SEN. DURBIN: Well, David, let me tell you, after we get beyond who goes first and bragging rights about who cuts the most, the bottom line is: Can we reach an agreement on a bipartisan fashion with senators of both political parties and move forward? What the president has said, he's open to this conversation. I'd like to say one word about Social Security from my point of view.

MR. GREGORY: Well, let me just hold that. I want to get Senator Graham's response on this question of whether the president is making good on his promise to lead on this issue.

SEN. GRAHAM: Well, it's clear to me that he, he did not lead in the State of the Union. This budget does nothing, his budget does nothing on entitlement spending, and we all know that's where the money's at. It's a politically timid budget, it's a fiscally timid budget. It goes nowhere near where the debt commission went. It was $4 trillion over a decade. It allows the debt to double in four years, then triple by 2019. It's just not the document we need to keep from becoming Greece. The debt commission, if given life, can change this country.

And to Senator Durbin, you have my undying respect and gratitude for working with Republicans and Democrats to vote on a document that is a blueprint to save this country from fiscal collapse. Forty cents of every dollar we spend, we borrow. And in 20 years from now, all of the money we have in revenue going to go to pay the debts Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, nothing left for the national defense, homeland security, etc. So Dick, let's do something about the tax code. Let's flatten it out, do away with all deductions except home interest and charitable giving. Let's be bold when it comes to Medicare. And let's put Social Security on the table in a rational way, like Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill did. There's no reason not to adjust the age over time for people under 55 to 69 or 70. You and I can afford some means testings to our benefits. That will save Social Security from bankruptcy. It's headed toward across-the-board cuts in 20 years. So I applaud what you're doing with the other senators, but let's do put Social Security on the table. Me and Senator McCain are going to work on a solution. I'd like to share it with you.

MR. GREGORY: Senator Durbin?

SEN. DURBIN: David, if I could say this about Social Security.

MR. GREGORY: Yeah.

SEN. DURBIN: I--first, I want to thank my colleague for the kind words. Social Security does not add one penny to the deficit. Social Security untouched will make every promised payment for more than 25 years. But the deficit commission was given a charge, add 75 more years of solvency to Social Security. It came up with an approach. I think, frankly, another commission, Pete Domenici and Alice Rivlin's commission, came up with a better approach. We need to move on Social Security, but let's put it on a track that runs parallel but separate to deficit reduction. The Social Security program, as it's currently put together, does not have any impact on the deficit.

MR. GREGORY: Senator Graham, is that--I mean...

SEN. GRAHAM: If I could just--well, that--let's just...

MR. GREGORY: ...few people believe that there's not an arithmetic problem with Social Security.

SEN. GRAHAM: You know, when I was 21 and 22, my parents died, I had a 13-year-old sister. I was in law--college in law school. If it weren't for survivor benefits coming to my sister from my parents' contribution, we would have had a hard time making it. Today I'm 55, I don't have any kids. You know, we're, we're paying more in benefits than we're collecting in taxes in about five years. In 2037, maybe even sooner, you have to cut benefits by a third across the table. All I'm suggesting is let's do with Social Security what Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill did. Let's get it in a sustainable glide path. You know the age has to be adjusted for all entitlements, including Medicare. To go 67 to 69 like Reagan and Tip O'Neill did, for people under 55, is amenably doable.

MR. GREGORY: All right.

SEN. GRAHAM: And it does help our long-term debt. To take it off the table and, and--is just the wrong thing to do. And, and it's just very disappointing.

MR. GREGORY: All right. We're going to have to leave it there. More of this debate ahead, for sure. Thank you both very much.

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