MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

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MATTHEWS: Well, here"s the latest on Charlie Rangel. The House of Representatives now voting right now on whether to change the proposed censure of Rangel, which is very serious business, to a simple reprimand. If the vote fails, the House will then vote on censure. We"re going to keep you posted on this vote and we"re going to go to the House floor immediately and live if and when Congressman Rangel faces the peers--his peers, rather, from the well of the House and has to take it.

Now to President Obama"s deficit reform commission. Today, the proposal picked up the support of Republican senators Tom Coburn of Oklahoma and Mike Crapo of Idaho. Senator Crapo joins us now with another supporter of the measure, Senator Kent Conrad of North Dakota, who"s the Democratic chairman of the Senate Budget Committee.

I want to go to Senator Conrad first because you were the one right out front here on this. There are now nine votes, as I"m counting it here, of the necessary 14 out of the 18. How important is it whether the president gets the 14 in the bipartisan commission?

SEN. KENT CONRAD (D-ND), BUDGET COMMITTEE CHAIR: Well, it would be very good if we got 14 because then we are assured of a vote in both houses of Congress. But look, I think this will be a success if we get a majority of the commissioners behind a plan that really does bring down the deficit dramatically, controls the debt, cuts spending, dramatically reforms the tax system and secures the solvency of Social Security for the next 75 years. That is a remarkable accomplishment.

MATTHEWS: Senator Crapo, your view? You"re now aboard those who support the bipartisan report. Give us your case, if you can.

SEN. MIKE CRAPO ®, IDAHO: Well, I agree with what Kent said, and I think we are going to get at least a majority when all is said and done. I hope we get to 14, or as close to it as we can. I think it"s important for the American people to know that in addition to focusing primarily and aggressively on spending, that this plan actually involves very major tax reform. In fact, I think it"s probably the most significant and far-reaching tax reform I"ve seen in my lifetime. It gives us an opportunity to make our tax code more fair, more competitive in the global environment, much less costly to comply with and helps us to move our economy into a position where it can get some dynamic growth.

MATTHEWS: Gentlemen, I"ll ask you--I"ll throw this as a toss-up to you. It seems to me that the problem for years has been it"s very tough to reduce the deficit. It"s easy to vote for a tax cut. It"s very easy to vote for a spending bill. It"s very hard to vote against both of them or to build your career, in fact, on being an opponent of big debt. Debt seems to be the solution to a lot of politicians" predicaments, not the problem. Your thoughts, Senator Conrad, as chairman of the Budget Committee?

CONRAD: Look, we"ve reached a defining moment. We are borrowing 40 cents of every dollar we spend. That cannot be continued much longer. It fundamentally threatens the economic security of the United States. We are borrowing money at record rates, and it"s got to stop. We need to pivot. We need to focus on getting our deficits and debt under control.

This commission report, while not perfect, goes a long way, $4 trillion of debt reduction over the next decade. That is moving in the right direction, and, as Senator Crapo has said, fundamental, far-reaching tax reform that"s going to make America more competitive and that"s going to help us grow. That"s exactly what our country needs.

MATTHEWS: There"s two issues--

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Yes, go ahead. Go ahead, Senator Crapo.

CRAPO: Well, the problem we face right now, among many, is that our national debt is 62 percent of gross--our GDP.

And if we continue to follow current policies, that debt will grow to 90 percent of GDP by 2020 and 180 percent of GDP by 2035. Now, we will never get there, because the economy will implode far before that.

We don"t have time for more gridlock. We don"t have time for inaction. In fact, the decision to do nothing right now will involve far more pain on both the spending and the taxing side than any kind of proposal that is included in this plan.

MATTHEWS: Now, Senator Conrad, then Senator Crapo, a lot of countries are going to the dogs right now in terms of their fiscal finances. They"re making jokes of themselves. Greece, a great country, a joke fiscally. The Irish, which I happen to like, a joke, it"s become over there.

Portugal, Italy, these countries are joining the list. Are we on that list at some point? Are we going to be another country down the road, with all our greatness, that can"t balance our books because we don"t have the guts to do it? And if you don"t follow the kind of direction you guys are leading us in right now, we"re going to be on that list of what they"re calling in Europe now the PIGS.

CONRAD: No, Chris, there is no question that we are headed in a direction that could lead to a financial crisis in the United States.

The Chinese leadership have told some of our leadership that they believe we have lost the will to make the tough decisions. And they believe, as a result, that we will become a second-rate economic power over time.

I hope we prove them wrong. And I think the courage of Senator Crapo and Tom Coburn to stand up today and say, yes, although there are things none of us like in this package, hey, the important thing is that it will help get this debt under control and move America forward.

CRAPO: And, Chris, you are right. The United States is rapidly approaching that point where our fiscal condition is going to be very similar to that of many countries who are facing this kind of difficult problem across the world.

I meant it when I said we don"t have time for gridlock. We must get engaged on an aggressive plan. The economists who advised this told us that one of the best things we could do for our economy is simply to get a plan in place, so that the world economy and the people of the globe would know that America is going to start fixing its fiscal condition, rather than letting it continue to rapidly deteriorate.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you gentlemen about the places to hide. It seems to me that the facts are on the table, that the entitlement programs will drive the percentage of government spending in GDP--of GDP up to about 30 percent. Nobody"s going to pay that many taxes in this country.

The issues of the national debt, as you point, it"s up to $14 trillion. Nobody denies these numbers. But what politicians do when they come on this show is find hiding places. Some will say, oh, we"re going to spend--we"re going to pay for unemployment benefits by taking money out of the stimulus package, or we"re going to have a public option in health care, and that"s going to save everything.

Politicians seem to find places to hide from the truth. How do you force them to give up their hiding places, stop with that, and face the real truth?

Senator Crapo, you on this first. How do you force your colleagues to face the objective reality here?

CRAPO: Well, Chris, the first thing is that this plan, if it gets sufficient votes, would do that. And that"s one of the reasons why I think those of us supporting it are so committed to it.

There are many things in this plan that are painful. In fact, there is pain across this plan, and there is no way to develop a plan to deal with our fiscal condition right now that doesn"t involve that kind of shared sacrifice.

But we also have shared opportunity here to do the right things. And I believe that the focus that this plan brings to the issue is the kind of thing that will help us stop seeking those hiding places, as you call it, and push ourselves into a realization that we don"t have time to let this sit anymore.

MATTHEWS: Well, it"s an honor to have both of you on.

I have always liked Senator Conrad. Now I like Senator Crapo.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: Thank you so--not that it matters a lot to the public out there, but I do like guys who have the guts, and women, to stand up for what is obviously the objection threat facing this country.

Thank you so much for coming on HARDBALL.

CONRAD: Thanks, Chris.

CRAPO: Thank you.

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