MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

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MATTHEWS: Well, what do you mean, "There"s no doubt"? That is the first time I"ve ever heard--just imagine--just imagine if he had said that about President Obama last election, when he was running for president. Oh, we could lose this thing, sure!

REP. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD), DCCC CHAIRMAN: Yes, well...

MATTHEWS: Politicians don"t talk about losing. He did.

VAN HOLLEN: Listen, Chris, two things. Number one, we have said from day one that...

MATTHEWS: Were you surprised he said that on Sunday?

VAN HOLLEN: I was not surprised he said that, for this reason. What he said was there are a lot of seats in play around the country and it"s a dogfight out there. We"ve been saying that from day one. We"ve been saying that from January or last year the afterglow of President Obama"s election. Be prepared. And we have been prepared. So the Democrats...

MATTHEWS: Could you lose 39 seats?

VAN HOLLEN: ... are not--the Democrats are not going to lose the House. The answer is no.

MATTHEWS: Well, he said you could lose 39 seats.

VAN HOLLEN: No, the way I understand what Robert Gibbs said is he said there are enough seats in place, that mathematically, that could happen. No one contests that fact. The question is what is going to happen. The special election up in Pennsylvania was a race, as you know, all the pundits out there said if the Republicans can"t win that seat in this environment, there"s no way they"re going to take back the House. We fought a dogfight out there. We won by 5, 6 points because we made it a choice. Just like Robert Gibbs has said, what this debate does is focus the voters on the choice they have.

MATTHEWS: OK, let"s take a look, Congressman, at what"s going on right now. This is the way it works right now. These are the numbers. You"ve got 255 House seats in your party"s control, 178 in Republican control, 2 vacant seats, 1 R, one D. So that averages out. So let me ask you this about this -- 39 seats, you"d loose the House, right? You"d lose the subpoena power. Darrell Issa would have it. The Republicans can"t wait to get it. They really want it, don"t they.

VAN HOLLEN: Hey, they"ve been out there...

MATTHEWS: Well, why do they want the House? They don"t want to pass any bills, so what do they want the House for? What"s their real goal to get the House?

VAN HOLLEN: Their goal is to stop the Obama agenda in its tracks. We had a big national election two years ago. Voters wanted change. What the Republicans want to do is go back to the same economic agenda that got us into this mess to begin with.

MATTHEWS: So give--since voters tend to be negative voters, meaning they vote against things, here"s your free shot. What do you think is the worst thing the Republicans would do if they got the House back?

VAN HOLLEN: Well, they"re going to go back to the same economic agenda. So here"s what they"ve said they"re going to do. This isn"t just made up. Their number one economic policy is to reinstate the tax cuts for the very rich. This is for the richest Americans.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

VAN HOLLEN: And we heard Jon Kyl just the other day say, And they don"t have to pay a penny for it. That"s $700 billion. What next do they want to do? They all voted against Wall Street reform. And we heard John Boehner, the Republican leader, describe the economic devastation that Americans felt as a result of the meltdown on Wall Street--he compared that to an ant. He trivialized it.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

VAN HOLLEN: So they have told us what they"re going to do. Joe Barton--he will be their point person on energy policy.

MATTHEWS: He works for BP, right?

VAN HOLLEN: Let"s apologize to BP because the president said...

MATTHEWS: I know. Well, he...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Well, they sort of tried to walk him on the plank on that one.

VAN HOLLEN: But in this story, or at least the story that sort of got over--passed over there was that the day before, 115 members of the Republican conference had said exactly the same thing. They said that the insistence on setting up the fund...

MATTHEWS: Why do you think the Republican Party...

VAN HOLLEN: ... was a shakedown.

MATTHEWS: ... is so comfortably in bed with the oil industry? I mean, why--I"m not sure they all are, obviously. But why do some members openly say, We"re in bed with the oil industry, after this catastrophe? They"re happy with the fact they"re not regulated. They"re happy with the fact they make a lot of money and they don"t really get regulated any way that"s going to protect our own coastline, our own waterways.

VAN HOLLEN: Right. Well, they have taken the position for years, with the oil industry, with the insurance industry, with Wall Street, business as usual. Anything goes. We don"t have to protect the consumers. We don"t have to protect the taxpayer. And that is the underlying theme...

MATTHEWS: OK, let"s take a look...

VAN HOLLEN: ... in the Republican policy. That"s what they"ll go back to.

MATTHEWS: Here"s the president. He"s got a new tack out there, by the way. For a long time, after a year-and-a-half in office, he never mentioned the opponent. He was like a Chicago pol--There is no Republican Party. Now he"s starting to name names. He"s advertising your opposition. Just like you advertised the Republicans, what they would do if they got in, here he is advertising what the Republicans--using names like Boehner, these curse words--Boehner! What"s the other guy"s name?

VAN HOLLEN: Boehner and Barton.

MATTHEWS: Barton!

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: ... Blunt. He"s got them, all these Bs. Let"s take a look...

VAN HOLLEN: OK.

MATTHEWS: ... and BP, of course. Here he is in Missouri. Let"s listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You may have read, the top Republican on the House committee, Mr. Barton publicly apologizing to BP. Does anybody here think BP should get an apology?

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No!

OBAMA: Mr. Barton did. He called this a tragedy, this--this fund that we have set up to compensate fishermen and small business owners throughout the gulf. That"s not the tragedy. The tragedy is if they didn"t get compensated. So this is the leadership that we"ve gotten from Barton and Boehner and Blunt. Sometimes I wonder if that no button is just stuck in Congress.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, there you heard it, Barton and Boehner and Blunt. I love the names! Here he is. Let"s take a look. Here he is, Gibbs, the spokesman for the president, on Sunday underlining that this, what you just heard, is going to be the spiel from now until election day in November. Let"s listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIBBS: Joe Barton started his congressional testimony of the CEO of BP by apologizing not to the people in the gulf but to the CEO. I think that"s a perfect window not into what people are thinking but the way they would govern. Joe Barton, John Boehner--those are the types of things you"ll hear a lot, I think, from both the president and from local candidates about what you"d get if the Republicans were to gain control.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: You guys are out there nut collecting, aren"t you! I mean, you--you--the Democrats have--we"ve had a tough economy in this country. Everybody"s had a hard time. A lot of people have. Maybe not the oil companies! So you"re going around looking for nuts, like, you know, Barton is crazy enough to side with BP in the worst catastrophe--haven"t you got--and another one, Bachmann. You haven"t got the other B here! If you"re going out looking for nuts, it would seem like you"d put her in your basket.

VAN HOLLEN: Well...

MATTHEWS: You haven"t gotten to her yet! She wants to investigate you guys for anti-American activities!

VAN HOLLEN: Well, look, what"s surprising, Chris, is not what they...

MATTHEWS: You love these (INAUDIBLE)

VAN HOLLEN: Well, they have told us what they"re going to do. They have forecast exactly what they"re going to do. Joe Barton has always been on the side of the big oil companies, and he said it publicly. They"ve been on the side of the big insurance companies, fighting...

MATTHEWS: Who"s the guy that yelled out...

VAN HOLLEN: ... health care reform...

MATTHEWS: ... in the State of the Union, "You lie"? What was that guy"s name?

VAN HOLLEN: That was Joe--that was Joe Wilson.

MATTHEWS: Where do they get these guys from?

VAN HOLLEN: But that"s the point. See, people need to focus on the fact that if you were to hand control over to the House, these are the guys who are going to be running policy and...

MATTHEWS: What percentage of the Republican Party right now, as its changed in our life--you"re a bit younger than me--has moved to the right, clearly? What percentage of the Republican Party would you put in the nut bag right now, the party that"s not just conservatives, but people that are just really crazy out there, even beyond the tea partiers?

VAN HOLLEN: Let me--let me just say...

MATTHEWS: You don"t want to give me a percentage?

VAN HOLLEN: No, but the out of the mainstream...

MATTHEWS: OK...

VAN HOLLEN: ... caucus of the Republican Party...

MATTHEWS: All right...

VAN HOLLEN: ... in the House is the largest caucus in the House by far, which is why you have these situations where you have...

MATTHEWS: Do they talk like this on the floor? Do you actually hear them talking among themselves, talking like this?

VAN HOLLEN: Well...

MATTHEWS: Isn"t BP great?

VAN HOLLEN: Usually, they"re a little more circumspect, which is why it"s, you know, something when Joe Barton gets out and publicly makes these statements.

MATTHEWS: OK. OK.

VAN HOLLEN: But it"s important that people understand what these guys...

MATTHEWS: OK, you know...

VAN HOLLEN: ... really mean.

MATTHEWS: ... usually, when you vote, a regular person votes with their gut. They walk in there--they vote with their mind, too, but (INAUDIBLE) I don"t like the way things are going. They go in and vote against the incumbents. That"s called a referendum.

Now, you guys are trying to change that gut instinct to, No, don"t go in there and vote with your gut, because that"ll screw your party. Go in there and go, Now, which party"s the worst? Let"s make sure I don"t have the worst party, at least. So the Democrats have not exactly been a great success yet, but the Republicans are far worse, right? How do you get people to change the question from, Yes or no, do I like things the way they are or not like the way things are, to, Let me think, Democrats versus Republican? How do you get people to think like that? Because clearly, you"re trying to get them to think like that. Gibbs is trying to do it. And the president"s trying to get us to think like that. Choice, not referendum. How do you change it like that?

VAN HOLLEN: Well, because people, at the end of the day, have a choice between two candidates, right? So it"s not...

MATTHEWS: But they don"t think like that usually. They usually go, Yes or no.

VAN HOLLEN: Well, what we"ve said, though, is it"s not just about us. It"s us versus them. What differences do you have between the parties on these issues that are critical to Americans? And if we can get people to focus on the fact that, you know, John Boehner describes the situation...

MATTHEWS: So this is a "frying pan into the fire" kind of thing?

VAN HOLLEN: Well, this is--this is, Let"s have a real debate on the issues.

MATTHEWS: I think (INAUDIBLE)

VAN HOLLEN: And what"s interesting is what they"ve told us they"re going to do.

MATTHEWS: I think it"s great you"re finally advertising your opponents because the guys like Boehner and Mitch McConnell and Eric Cantor and Jon Kyl have been getting a free ride in this country for months now. They just sit back like burghers on Main Street, waiting for you guys to blow it. Then they get all the votes.

VAN HOLLEN: Well, they get to sit on the sidelines. They get to whine.

MATTHEWS: OK.

VAN HOLLEN: They get to carp. And now we"re saying, Put up. Let"s see what you guys...

MATTHEWS: It"s an interesting choice...

VAN HOLLEN: ... are going to do.

MATTHEWS: ... that you"re making...

VAN HOLLEN: Absolutely.

MATTHEWS: ... for the American voters, if they choose to make a choice and not just go, Nyah. Anyway, thank you, Chris Van Hollen, who happens to be...

VAN HOLLEN: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: ... my congressman.

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