MSNBC "Hardball With Chris Matthews" - Transcript
Interview
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MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. House Majority Leader Steny
Hoyer--you just saw him there--he says he"s concerned that at least 10
House members have received threats, serious threats--some of the ones
that you know about already, death threats to members, smashed windows in
members" offices and at local Democratic headquarters around the country,
vandalism at the homes of members" relatives.
Well, James Clyburn is the House majority whip, the top man.
Congratulations. I"ve never seen you so happy. I"m watching you there a
minute ago there, Mr. Clyburn, and you haven"t seemed this happy since I
met you. So congratulations. You"ve won.
REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D-SC), MAJORITY WHIP: Thank you.
MATTHEWS: And in America, winning counts. Let me ask you about the
dangers of winning. You"ve incited some anger out there on the floor of
the House, lines like "Baby killer," "You lie," is inciting people out in
the streets to get violent.
CLYBURN: Well, thank you so much for having me, Chris. And yes, I am
pretty happy right now. You know, I think that one of the things we have
to be very, very careful of in our society is that we don"t ruin the
possibilities of us operating the civil manner. I think that when you see
people on the floor, as we saw, cheering those people who are up in the
balcony jeering, there"s something wrong with that. It violates the
decorum of the House, but it also helps to incite people.
And I think that what we saw on Sunday and Saturday is a throwback to
a time that all of us thought we had behind us. All of this is not about
health care. These people were ginned up in such a way, and had posters
that went far beyond whether or not this bill ought to not pass. Those
kinds of things we have got to stop, and they are being egged on by people
who ought to know better.
MATTHEWS: Well, you know, there"s a lot of talk about whether tea
partiers are a separate partier or they"re just Republicans at a meeting.
Let"s take a look at these latest numbers. The Quinnipiac poll,
Congressman, shows that 74 percent of tea partiers are self-described
Republicans. Well, that"s three quarters, Only 1 in 6 -- 16 -- say
they"re Democrats. They must be conservative Democrats, I guess.
What do you make of that? I mean, are they--is this just another
name for Republican, tea party?
CLYBURN: Oh, I think so. Oh, there"s no question about it. They are
an arm of the Republican Party. No question about that. And I think that
people should understand that more than anything else. If 75 percent of
them identify themselves as Republicans, I suspect that in that other 25
percent or 26 percent, whatever it is, you"ll find a few Republican
leanings in there, as well.
So I believe we know that they came here to try to intimidate, try to
stop this vote. They had to know that we were not going to be intimidated.
I hope they know that. So there"s something else going on here that"s
churning up people for other activities down the road.
Look, we"re going to soon get to deal with this issue of immigration,
and I"m afraid that if we don"t tamp this down now, that controversial
issue could very well...
MATTHEWS: Yes.
CLYBURN: ... generate something that could lead to some catastrophic
events.
MATTHEWS: Let"s talk to a case in point. Here"s the brick thrown
through the window of that Rochester, New York, Democratic headquarters.
The note attached says "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice."
That"s, of course, the Barry Goldwater slogan from way back in "64 in a
different, more frightening context.
Now, the person who"s apparently egged that person on, the person who
took credit for encouraging people to smash windows, said this in a radio
interview.
Let"s listen to this fellow. Has name is Vanderboegh.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MIKE VANDERBOEGH, FORMER MILITIA LEADER: There are rifles being
cleaned right now. Do you folks understand that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Being what? Claimed, from where?
VANDERBOEGH: There are rifles being taken out of the closet and
cleaned.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, there you have it.
CLYBURN: Yes.
MATTHEWS: He"s talking about people, you know, locking and loading
and all that sort of stuff, and getting their rifles cleaned for action.
And he"s encouraging it, this blogger. He"s apparently the guy who got
behind this brick-throwing.
People are coming out of the closet, if you will. And they"re saying
that they"re dangerous people and they want to make other people dangerous.
CLYBURN: Well, you know, when you hear that kind of talk, and then--
and you look on Sarah Palin"s Web site and see that she"s got crosshairs
there targeting people who voted for this bill...
MATTHEWS: Yes.
CLYBURN: ... now, why not put a star there or a check mark? To put
the crosshairs there of a rifle tends to give credence to this sort of
thing.
And then we heard the head of the Republican Party, Mr. Steele, saying
something about shooting the speaker down. I forgot what it was, but it
implied a violent action.
MATTHEWS: Sure.
CLYBURN: This stuff is beyond the pale.
And they need to stop this, because, I can tell you, I have seen how
these things escalate. People out there in the streets get their signals
or what they think are their signals from the people in positions like we
hold. And, so, if we don"t disown that and go get our people to move
beyond that, if we participate in it, either from the balcony or on the
floor of the House, you are aiding and abetting this kind of terrorism,
really.
MATTHEWS: Well, you know, you"re getting language from Bill McCollum,
the former member now running for governor of Florida. You know, he"s
referring to the health care bill that you got passed, helped to get
passed, as an invasion of the sovereignty of Florida.
They"re using secessionist language. I thought the Gadsden flag from
South Carolina flying over the balcony of the Capitol being waved by
members of Congress. The Gadsden flag was the "Don"t tread on me" flag of
the republic...
CLYBURN: Absolutely.
MATTHEWS: ... that we used to fight the British with. They"re
treating our central government in Washington as the enemy, as if it"s a
foreign government. And that"s the way Bill McCollum"s talking. They"re
using the language of--of nullification and even of secession in Texas.
CLYBURN: Yes.
MATTHEWS: And now Bill McCollum"s using it. There it is, the Gadsden
flag. That was the flag we used to form our republic when we were fighting
the British. That"s the way the--what"s the--what"s going on here?
This is real symbolism of--of a--almost a mutiny.
CLYBURN: Yes.
And, as you know, Bill McCollum is a former member of this body. And,
so, that, in and of itself, signals something to me. Let me tell you, I
think that the attorneys general that have been filing these lawsuits, it"s
somewhat reminiscent, you know, of those people who resisted the
fundamental rights like voting.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
CLYBURN: All we"re trying to do here is get rid of discrimination
against people with preexisting conditions, stop discriminating against
women, who are paying twice for their premiums that men pay for them, stop
discriminating against people who get catastrophic illnesses.
That"s all we"re doing, trying to say, let"s put health care on an
equal footing for everybody, make it accessible, make it affordable, make
it accountable. This is not about anything that"s foreign to what a
democracy ought to be.
MATTHEWS: You know, I"m just amazed. I"m like you. I study history.
And I realize that Richard Nixon, who was hardly a left-winger,
advocated an employer mandate back in the "70s. You know, it--I--and
Mitt Romney up in Massachusetts signed a bill that requires people to have
health insurance.
Out in California, Schwarzenegger"s done it. I mean, this isn"t left-
wing politics. This is--well, at most, it"s center-left, if not center.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: How do they get away with this socialist thing they keep
throwing at you guys?
CLYBURN: You know what"s so interesting? I have had my staff chart
Bob Dole"s plan back in 1994 that he offered up in alternative--as an
alternative...
MATTHEWS: Yes.
CLYBURN: ... to the plan being pushed by President Clinton. We
tracked it. Except for Medicaid expansion in our plan and the absence
of...
MATTHEWS: Yes.
CLYBURN: ... of medical malpractice, there are exactly the same
things.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
CLYBURN: This plan is so close to Bob Dole"s plan, it ain"t funny.
And, so, this is nothing that"s not been put on the table by
Republicans time and time again. It"s just that these people have
decided...
MATTHEWS: Yes.
CLYBURN: ... to try to deny this president.
MATTHEWS: And now they have resorted to rock-throwing.
Anyway, thank you very much, U.S. Congressman Jim Clyburn.
CLYBURN: Thank you so much for having me.
MATTHEWS: Again--again, I know you are happy and proud because...
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: ... this is history that was made this week. And if you
are opposed to it, you still have to recognize it as history.
Anyway, thank you, sir, for coming on.
Up next...
CLYBURN: Thank you so much for having me.
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