MSNBC "Hardball With Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

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MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. U.S. Congresswoman Diana DeGette of Colorado is co-chair of the Congressional Pro-Choice Caucus and she is opposed to the Stupak amendment language that wound up in the House bill. Congresswoman, thank you for joining us. What do you make of the president‘s statement, both before the Congress, where he said--back to two months ago--well, let‘s take a look at the president. Let him speak in his own words, and then you respond, Congresswoman. Here he is, speaking to Congress.

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OBAMA: And one more misunderstanding I want to clear up. Under our plan, no federal dollars will be used to fund abortions and federal conscience laws will remain in place.

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MATTHEWS: And here he is yesterday on another matter, on this matter, but stating it somewhat differently.

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OBAMA: This is a health care bill, not an abortion bill. And we‘re not looking to change what is a core principle that has been in place for a very long time, which is federal dollars are not used to subsidize abortions.

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MATTHEWS: Congresswoman, federal dollars should not be used to fund abortion or even to subsidize abortion. Does that language bother you?

REP. DIANA DEGETTE (D-CO), PRO-CHOICE CAUCUS: Actually, Chris, that language was language that we compromised on last summer in the bill as it came through my committee, the Energy and Commerce Committee. We believe, as the president does, that this bill‘s about health care, health care for 36 million Americans, not about abortion. And so this summer, the Pro-Choice Caucus members, the pro-choice members of Energy and Commerce, we compromised with some of the other members on our committee and we passed language which said exactly that--In this bill, we will not have federal funding used for abortions.

Unfortunately, the Stupak amendment that was passed as part of the bill on Saturday goes far, far beyond current law. And what it says is, in the public option and in the insurance exchange, people cannot even use their private dollars to buy insurance coverage that will pay for full reproductive services. That would be the biggest expansion of anti-choice laws in my entire career.

MATTHEWS: But the president said he‘s against any subsidization of abortion. Wouldn‘t subsidizing insurance plans which cover abortion be a subsidy? It‘s his word, "subsidy," by the way, not mine.

DEGETTE: No. Actually, the president I think agrees with us because under current law, there--we have several things. Some businesses get tax credits right now for offering--offering insurance plans to their employees, and those plans pay--cover abortions. Right now, under Medicaid, federal funding cannot be used to pay for abortions under the Hyde amendment, but 17 states fund abortions with their state dollar.

MATTHEWS: I know.

DEGETTE: A federal program that the states are administering and the federal money‘s not used. So in fact, what we‘re saying is, people who are in the exchange, if they get the premium support--let‘s say they pay $100 a month for their insurance and they get $10 of premium assistance. That $10 should not be able to be used for abortions, but why can‘t their private money be used to pay for full coverage? In the...

MATTHEWS: Well, now you‘re quibbling. It seems to me, Congresswoman, if the federal government is subsidizing something by saying, We‘ll pay 10 percent of it or 20 percent of it, like for ethanol or anything else they subsidize, they‘re subsidizing it. I‘m giving you the view of those who are pro-life. They don‘t like the idea of the federal government subsidizing abortion like it would ethanol or anything else the government chooses to encourage. Isn‘t the government encouraging insurance companies to cover abortion if it subsidizes that coverage? I‘m just asking you an analytical question.

DEGETTE: Yes, absolutely--absolutely not.

And, in fact, that‘s not what the Hyde amendment says. What current law says is, federal money shall not be used to pay for abortions, except for with the life, rape, or incest.

And--and we agree with that. But it doesn‘t--current law doesn‘t

talk about subsidizing. That‘s--that‘s beyond current law. And I think

· and I think...

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MATTHEWS: Well, the president does. Last night, on "Nightline," the president said...

DEGETTE: Well--well--well...

MATTHEWS: ... he‘s against subsidizing abortion. He said he‘s against it. He used the word subsidize.

DEGETTE: Well, I don‘t think--I think the president agrees with me.

And I could be wrong, but I will tell you this, that--that--that we were willing to compromise. And we still are.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

DEGETTE: We think that, if people don‘t feel like the Hyde language is well enough defined in the bill, we can talk about ways that we can keep federal dollars from funding abortions.

But why should we say to a middle-class businesswoman, a small-business woman, who can‘t get insurance right now because she can‘t buy into a big group, you can‘t buy insurance in the public option that has a full range of reproductive services with your own private dollars?

Why--why do we say that? That‘s way beyond anything contemplated in current law.
MATTHEWS: OK.

Let‘s see if--I hope you can solve this problem, in the interest of health care, Congresswoman. I hope we can get a compromise...

DEGETTE: Well, I mean, I--I...

MATTHEWS: ... because there wasn‘t one at hand last Saturday night.

There wasn‘t a compromise that satisfied your concerns.

And a speaker who is pro-choice went along with the other side of this argument.

DEGETTE: Actually, the speaker voted against this amendment, too. And she very rarely ever votes on the floor. And she didn‘t support the amendment either.

The reason she was forced to allow it to be put up on the floor is because Congressman Stupak and--and others said that they would vote against final passage of the bill. And she wanted to keep the bill moving along. I did, too.

MATTHEWS: I know.

DEGETTE: I would like to work this out. And I think we will be able to work this out.

MATTHEWS: Well, good luck.

Thank you very much, Congresswoman DeGette...

DEGETTE: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: ... DeGette for coming on the show tonight.

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