MSNBC "Hardball With Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

Msnbc "Hardball With Chris Matthews" Interview With House Majority Whip James Clyburn
Interviewer: Chris Matthews

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MR. MATTHEWS: Joining us now, South Carolina Democratic Congressman and House Majority Whip James Clyburn.

Congressman Clyburn, let me ask you -- I know you weren't there during the briefing, but now Leon Panetta, the head of the CIA, has said that this is what happened in that briefing. "The political" -- let me go through this; this is his memo to the agency. Let's read it right now. "The political debates about interrogation reached a new decibel level yesterday when the CIA was accused of misleading Congress. Let me be clear: It is not our policy or practice to mislead the Congress. As the agency indicated previously in response to congressional inquiries, our contemporaneous records from September 2002 indicate that CIA officers briefed truthfully on the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah, describing the enhanced techniques that had been employed."

So there you have former U.S. Congressman, former Clinton Budget Director Leon Panetta saying on the record, as head of the CIA, that Nancy Pelosi was briefed back in 2002, briefed correctly as per the memoranda which were written at the time by the briefing officers, and that she was clearly briefed on the enhanced interrogation techniques, i.e. waterboarding, that had been used, not that were approved or authorized, but had been used. This is in direct contradiction to what the speaker is saying.

What do you think?

REP. CLYBURN: Well, you know, I'll tell you what I think. I think Nancy Pelosi is a woman of great integrity, great intellect, and I do not believe that she would intentionally attempt to mislead anybody. And so when she made her statement the other day -- I think it was yesterday -- I read the statements put out by Senator Graham; now, Senator Graham, talking about that same series of hearings, saying that he was told that he had been briefed four times, yet when he went back to his records that we all know he's famous for keeping, he found out that he was only briefed one time. And when he got back to the CIA, they agreed that they had misreported and he had not been briefed three times when they said they had.

So I do believe that during that period of time there was some kind of disconnect between the CIA and what they ought to have been doing. And so I think that Nancy Pelosi is absolutely correct in what she is saying, and I think it's buttressed by what Senator Graham, who was on the Senate side, receiving the same briefings, had to say today.

MR. MATTHEWS: But Porter Goss, who was the Republican chair of Intelligence at the time, who was in the room with Nancy Pelosi when she was the congresswoman as ranking Democrat on that Intelligence Committee, he confirms what the CIA is saying. Leon Panetta, the former Democratic member from California, he's confirming what the CIA said.

Now it's Nancy Pelosi out there all alone. Could it be that she doesn't remember what happened in that briefing? Could that be true? You said not intentionally misleading anybody. But how does anybody remember exactly what was said seven years ago unless they took notes? And Nancy Pelosi doesn't say she took notes.

REP. CLYBURN: Well, as I understand it, you don't take notes in those meetings. I've been to only one. And when I came out of that meeting, and within five minutes I had someone from another network asking me about questions that they should not have known that was taking place up in that meeting. So I decided not to ever go into another one again, and so I have not. And so I don't think she took notes in the meeting.

I do know this. The moment we came into power back in 2007, Nancy Pelosi put forth a piece of legislation to outlaw torture and to make sure that they follow interrogations the Field Manual. We passed that bill in the House. It went over to the Senate. The Senate passed the bill, and President Bush vetoed it.

So Nancy Pelosi, when she had the power to do so, she put forth a frontal attack against torture. And I believe that demonstrates what her position is.

MR. MATTHEWS: Do you think we need a truth commission on what happened to intelligence? We're getting a lot of information on the program tonight that's going to come further tonight -- I know it's coming -- about the role the vice president's office played back in those years, 2002, before the Iraq war, trying to use interrogations to try to prove the case for war ahead of time and thereafter; a political argument, not a national intelligence or a national security effort.

Do you think we need a truth commission to find out how the VP's office, Cheney in particular, used torture to get what he wanted done politically? Do you think we need that commission?

REP. CLYBURN: Yes, I do, and I've been advocating that for a long time. And I do believe that Speaker Pelosi has advocated the same thing. We ought to get this out of the politics. We ought to get this off the front pages; get a commission, such as the 9/11 commission that we had, or such as the Frank Church commission we had some years ago. I knew Frank Church. And, of course, I understand last night you were accused of being a member of his staff.

MR. MATTHEWS: That's not an accusation.

REP. CLYBURN: I knew him. He was a very good friend. And I know --

MR. MATTHEWS: It's a false -- I would have loved to have worked for him.

REP. CLYBURN: -- that you were not a member of the staff.

MR. MATTHEWS: No, I worked for Ed Muskie, his colleague. I worked for Ed Muskie, who was another great senator.

REP. CLYBURN: Absolutely.

MR. MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about whether -- the trouble is that what's good for the goose is good for the gander, as we used to say growing up. And the question is, should Speaker Pelosi be empaneled as a witness, under oath, to that commission if this does take place? Should the Democrats -- Joe Sestak, a member of Congress, your colleague, last night on this program said yes, she would have to be questioned under oath as other people are about her complicity, if so, in any kind of torture policy. Do you think she should be questioned under oath?

REP. CLYBURN: Well, I think that everybody -- I think the vice president ought to talk about the role he played. And what's wrong with Nancy Pelosi talking about what role she played as a member of that committee? So I don't think she has a single thing to hide, and I do believe that she will welcome such an opportunity. And I would certainly like to see a commission appointed.

MR. MATTHEWS: Wouldn't it be great to see the vice president testify under oath without the president there, and the president without the vice president, unlike the way they usually like to do it?

Anyway, thank you, U.S. Congressman Jim Clyburn of South Carolina.

REP. CLYBURN: I would love to see it.

MR. MATTHEWS: Okay, thank you, sir.

REP. CLYBURN: Thank you so much for having me.

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