MSNBC Interview - Transcript

Interview

MSNBC Interview - Transcript

MSNBC INTERVIEW WITH SENATOR JOHN THUNE (R-SD)

SUBJECT: DECLASSIFYING TORTURE MEMOS

INTERVIEWER: NORAH O'DONNELL

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MS. O'DONNELL: Joining me live is Republican Senator John Thune of South Dakota. Senator, good to see you. Thanks so much for joining us.

SEN. THUNE: Good afternoon, Norah.

MS. O'DONNELL: I know you believe that torture is wrong, so why not go after and prosecute those that made this torture seem legal?

SEN. THUNE: Well, I think at this point the goal should be, Norah, what steps can we take to keep the country safer, and not what steps can the president take to make the left wing of his party happy. We have come through a very difficult time in this country. Obviously, you heard Mike Hayden, the former CIA director, say on Sunday that these enhanced interrogation techniques kept the country safer. You've heard Dennis Blair, the National Intelligence director for this president, say essentially the very same thing.

And it seems to me that going back and trying to rehash a lot of things that happened before and trying to criminalize policy difference is counterproductive. I think the president ought to stay focused on keeping the country safer, not on trying to satisfy the left wing of his party, which I know is clamoring for a lot these investigations, but which I frankly think are just very much counterproductive.

MS. O'DONNELL: I think, Senator, it's important to be clear what Admiral Dennis Blair, who is the director of the National Intelligence, said is that it did yield some information, but it's not clear that those tactics in themselves yielded that information. So shouldn't we be clear about that? And what about losing our moral bearings by using these types of tactics?

SEN. THUNE: Well, I think that if you go back and look -- and, of course, they did -- there was part of that memo that they released publicly, and then there was a part which they didn't, which subsequently leaked out. But he did indicate in that memo that the enhanced interrogation techniques did yield high-value information. And he also said that he wouldn't go so far as to cast out on anybody who made decisions in the past a time now when we have the benefit of, you know, bright, clear, sunny days, safe days, when --

MS. O'DONNELL: Senator, it's --

SEN. THUNE: -- back then they were making decisions during very difficult circumstances.

MS. O'DONNELL: Senator, it sounds to me like you're defending torture.

SEN. THUNE: No, I'm not defending torture, Norah. I'm just saying there were decisions made, I think, at a time when our country -- when people said, "Do what needs to be done to keep America safe." And in fact, it's -- it's -- it's been established that these -- the information that was -- that was -- that was gotten from interrogation of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Zubaydah both were very useful in terms of helping us --

MS. O'DONNELL: They had to waterboard them both more than 226 times. How could that possible be useful if they had to do it more than 226 times?

SEN. THUNE: Well, I'm just telling you what -- the information that was derived from those interrogations was useful in preventing future terrorist attacks against the United States and helping us learn more information about al Qaeda. I'm not defending waterboarding or torture or anything else. I'm simply saying that some of the enhanced interrogation techniques that were used in the past have been concluded to have been useful in getting information that was very important to keeping America safer.

And you know, yes, today we may look at these things as -- as -- frankly, as Dennis Blair said last week, and look back on them at the time, and think, "Well, we wouldn't do that now." But he gives the benefit of the doubt to people who came before whom had to make decisions under very difficult circumstances about what is necessary to keep America safe.

MS. O'DONNELL: Senator, I think what's probably most alarming to a lot of people is this story, too, in the McClatchy newspapers today that essentially the former vice president, Dick Cheney, as well as the Defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, pushed these tactics because they wanted to establish a link between al Qaeda and Iraq. That's not me saying that. This is a former U.S. Army psychiatrist. Major Charles Burney told Army investigators in 2006 that they were doing this at Gitmo.

Let me read exactly what he said. Quote, "While we were there, a large part of the time, we were focused on trying to establish a link between al Qaeda and Iraq. And we were not successful in establishing a link." He told the Army inspector general, "The more frustrated people got in not being able to establish that link, there was more and more pressure to resort to measures that might produce more immediate results."

You say it was about protecting this country. It sounds like there was a political motive coming from the White House, according to this Army psychiatrist; that it was to establish a link that wasn't there between al Qaeda and Iraq to justify the war.

SEN. THUNE: Well, look, if you want to talk about -- I think it's important -- they selectively disqualified certain things this week -- the administration did -- that are useful to their point of view. What they ought to do is declassify all that information. There evidently are memos out there that are still classified that point to the connection between the information that was gathered, the high-value information that was gathered through enhanced interrogation techniques, and keeping America safer and giving us more information about al Qaeda and its methods and everything else.

So you know, more is better. Let's get this stuff out in the open. But I don't think that there is any value at this point in time in going back and trying to prosecute people for things that happened before when we ought to be focused on keeping the country safer going forward.

MS. O'DONNELL: All right. Senator John Thune, Republican of South Dakota, who is calling for more disclosure. We'll see whether that helps or hurts the former administration.

Thanks so much for joining us.

SEN. THUNE: Thanks, Norah.

END.

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