MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews"- Transcript

MR. MATTHEWS: We're joined by Senator Jack Reed of Rhode Island and U.S. Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah.

Gentlemen, thank you for joining us. We'll go with seniority first.

Senator Hatch, are you ready to vote for the bailout? It's now being called a rescue plan.

SEN. HATCH: Well, I've looked at the plan, and I think there are a lot of good factors in there, including the Senate extenders bill, which will get rid of the AMT, the alternative minimum tax, for 23,000 -- 23 million American citizens, and, of course, all kinds of financial incentives in there to spur on business. Just the solar and wind tax credits in that bill will amount to about 116,000 jobs.

So I'm going to vote for it because I think we have to. I think that, frankly, this is a much-improved bill. Increasing the FDIC rate from $100,000 to $250,000 is a very helpful thing. And there are a number of other changes that I think are going to be beneficial for America. But we've got to do this, because otherwise there are no answers to the problem that we're in a free fall on. So I think most people in the Senate should vote for this.

MR. MATTHEWS: Senator Reed, let me ask you, do you agree with Senator Obama, who just spoke on the floor, that this is a necessary but not sufficient plan to save the economy right now, not sufficient? Something else has to be done later.

SEN. HATCH: Well, I would not --

SEN. REED: Absolutely.

SEN. HATCH: Oh, I thought you were talking to me. I'm sorry.

MR. MATTHEWS: No -- Senator Reed. I'm sorry.

SEN. HATCH: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

SEN. REED: No, I absolutely agree with Senator Obama. This is the first step, but it's not the last step. One aspect we have to consider is regulatory reform to prevent the situation that occurred over the last several months and years on Wall Street to occur again. That's one step.

But we do have to make a strong commitment to families, dealing more aggressively with the foreclosure issue, investing in families, as he discussed. We have to do things like extend unemployment compensation, because there are a lot of people out there that are hurting. So there's much more we can do to move resources and increase the opportunities of working Americans, not simply respond to this great financial crisis.

MR. MATTHEWS: Senator Reed, who's the leader of the country right now, America? Who's our leader right now? In going to the rescue of our economy, who's leading this fight? Is it the president? Who's the leader of the country? I'm serious about this right now, because I don't know.

SEN. REED: Well, the leadership of the country is one issue that is going to be debated over the next several weeks. I think, frankly -- and this is not just unique to this administration -- that in the waning days of any administration, you're looking ahead.

But one of the things that was, I think, very characteristic of this approach was that Secretary Paulson seemed to be the spokesperson for the administration. I think the president spoke, but frankly not with the authority, not with the decisiveness that was sufficient at least to persuade the House Republicans to support this measure and pass it.

But I don't think we can just discuss leadership at this point. We have to get this bill passed. We have to provide the next administration with the tools to get the job done.

MR. MATTHEWS: I want to put the same question to you, Senator Hatch. Who's leading our country right now? I've never seen it so hard -- and I've studied it -- and you've been a leader; I've just been studying it for all these years. It seems hard to figure out who's in charge. Is it Pelosi? Is it the president? Is it Paulson? Is it Senator Reid? Is it Senator Mitch McConnell? Who's the boss?

SEN. HATCH: It's all of the above. I have to say that the president has given some very good talks on this, has made some very good suggestions. Secretary Paulson has been a major leader here. We all know that he has the capacity and the ability to work with these situations and this legislation, should we pass it.

And I have to give credit to both leaders in the House, both leaders in the Senate, who have been pushing and shoving and working on this; and, last but not least, you know, the people who negotiated this bill, especially Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, and, from our standpoint, Judd Gregg, who's done a terrific job on this. And there are a lot of people that have worked on this. But I think all of those people deserve credit if we can pass this bill tonight.

MR. MATTHEWS: Let me go to Senator Reed on the question of procedure. Why do you need 60 votes? Was there really a United States senator out there who was willing to filibuster this bill, this rescue bill?

SEN. REED: I hope there was not one, but I think just --

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, why do you need 60 votes? Why are we in this syndrome that you need 60 votes to pass something everybody says is a necessary condition to save the country's economy?

SEN. REED: I think we're in this syndrome because we've had so many filibusters over the course of the last several years. I think the reflexive reaction of the leadership was, "Well, let's not get into a procedural fight about whether we need a cloture vote, then a (substantive ?) vote. Let's just go right to the (substantive ?) vote.

I hope the vote tonight will bear out what you say, Chris, which is more than 60, far more than 60 senators will support this package.

MR. MATTHEWS: Let me ask you both about this -- Senator Hatch mentioned the FDIC extension of the cap up to $250,000. Is that important to you as a Democrat, Senator Reed?

SEN. REED: Well, I think it's important to me because what it will do is help community banks across the country. And I think what we've seen and what the FDIC is reporting is that there's a deposit outflow from some of these banks. And I think this provision to increase insurance will provide more confidence for local small banks, community banks. And again, the emphasis here has to be not just on the financial markets and Wall Street across the globe, but it has to be across the country into the main streets of America.

MR. MATTHEWS: Let me ask Senator Hatch about the economy. I heard Jack Welch on our program this morning on "Morning Joe" say that he believes we're heading into a very bad recession in the fourth quarter this year, what they call negative growth; in other words, the economy is shrinking. Is that going to be something we have to face even if the Senate does act tonight?

SEN. HATCH: Well, first of all, the FDIC $250,000 is to protect all the individuals out there who have money in those banks. But it also helps the banks, as Jack has said.

With regard to your question, I forgot it already. (Laughs.) It was --

MR. MATTHEWS: No, the recession. Are we facing a recession, sir?

SEN. HATCH: Well, let's put it this way. If we pass this bill -- and I think one reason why they've set the 60 votes isn't because anybody's going to filibuster it. I think it's because they want a substantial vote out of the Senate so that the House then will pass it in the House. But, you know, I think -- you know, I personally believe that we're going to have a really rough time over the next while as we try and sift through all these things.

Let's face it. We don't even know how many derivatives are out there. And that's really a very, very big problem in the financial world. And frankly, this is the first step in trying to take care of all these problems. And it's just a first step.

I think we've got to do a number of things that will stabilize our country, protect our citizens, especially Joe Six-Pack and everybody else who's worried about losing their homes and worried about losing their jobs and worried about job creation in this country.

MR. MATTHEWS: Senator Reed, when you're back in Rhode Island and you try to explain this to people -- Joe Six-Pack, whoever that is, a regular person -- how do you explain it, how we got in this mess where the government has to commit $700 billion to back up these financial institutions and the bad deals they've made?

SEN. REED: The crisis right now is in the credit markets. If the credit markets seize up, if banks won't lend, then that translates into higher interest rates on credit cards. It translates into fewer auto sales because you can't get a car loan. It translates into the difficulty of sending children to school because you can't get a Stafford loan at a reasonable rate.

All these things impact directly on families. And that's the reason why we're acting. Wall Street might have started the crisis, but it spread. And it'll affect every American. It'll affect unemployment. It'll affect a whole host of issues. And I agree with Orrin. I think this is a first step, a necessary step, but we have to do much more to help people who are struggling in their homes across the country. We just can't stop at this juncture.

MR. MATTHEWS: Okay, Senator Jack Reed of Rhode Island, a Democrat, thank you for joining us.

SEN. REED: Thank you.

MR. MATTHEWS: Senator Orrin Hatch, Republican of Utah. Gentlemen, thank you very much.

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