PBS "To the Contrary"

Interview

MS. ERBE: This week on "To the Contrary," will Sarah Palin woo Clinton supporters to the GOP. Then, Governor Palin's positions on social wedge issues. Behind the headlines, the death of a liberal arts education in America.

(Musical break.)

MS. ERBE: Hello, I'm Bonnie Erbe. Welcome to "To the Contrary," a discussion of news and social trends from diverse perspectives. Up first, Alaska governor and vice presidential running mate Sarah Palin.

GOV. SARAH PALIN (R-AK): (From tape.) I will be honored to accept your nomination for vice president of the United States. (Applause.)

MS. ERBE: The Republican Party made history by nominating its first woman vice presidential running mate, Sarah Palin, some 24 years after the Democrats nominated Geraldine Ferraro to the same position.

SEN. OLYMPIA SNOWE (R-ME): (From tape.) It has been a gender gap in our party for far too long and I'm sure that she'll be an asset and very instrumental in being able to bring about that change and (drawing women to this party ?) and for the right reasons, for the things that we stand for -- (inaudible).

MS. ERBE: In a speech that electrified the hall and which even many of her critics praised, Governor Palin was by turns charming and combative toward her opponents.

GOV. PALIN: (From tape.) I guess a small town mayor is sort of like a community organizer, except that you have actual responsibilities.

MS. ERBE: By week's end, Senator Barack Obama was still enjoying his convention bounce leading in one Gallup poll by a half dozen points. With the addition of Palin to the McCain ticket, pollsters are finding fewer swing voters undecided. Just 21 percent, down by almost 10 points since last week, have yet to make up their minds. The key group of swing voters the McCain campaign is wooing big time is women, former Clinton supporters, but a new poll finds just 9 percent of women who voted for Clinton in the primaries say they'll support the McCain-Palin ticket.

SEN. SNOWE: (From tape.) And I think people who -- (unintelligible) -- have an opportunity to get to know her. I think that's really the issue now. People don't know her, and they will in the next two months and I think that there will be a certain comfort level with all that she brings into this position and why John decided to select her in the first place.

MS. ERBE: As Americans get to know Governor Palin, they're also being introduced to her family. She's a mother of five, including an infant with Down syndrome. This week, the mommy wars moved from the blogosphere to the political podium with some critics questioning whether anyone could campaign for or be vice president while parenting a large family and a special needs child.

REP. MARSHA BLACKBURN (R-TN): (From tape.) Well, isn't that ironic that you're hearing women's groups mention this when for years they've been saying, women need to be outside the home. There needs to be shared responsibility between the husband and the wife. And now that we have a female -- a conservative female on a national ticket all of a sudden they're saying, well, she should be home. There's so much going on in her family. And I have found that incredibly ironic.

MS. ERBE: Former Massachusetts Governor Jane Swift, the first governor to give birth in office, is all too familiar with these types of criticisms.

GOV. JANE SWIFT (R-MA): (From tape.) There unfortunately is still a double standard and too many women who have significant achievements and also treasured the role as mothers get asked questions that guys don't ask, so I'm not going to participate in that game. I think we should look at Governor Palin's record of achievement, judge her on her positions on the issues. And she's a great role model for my three daughters.

MS. ERBE: The largest controversy surrounding Palin's nomination was the revelation that her 17-year-old daughter is five months pregnant and planning to marry the baby's father, throwing a spotlight on a point of contention between Republicans and Democrats -- abstinence-only education.

REP. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO (R-WV): (From tape.) That's a lot to take on for your whole family to be in such a public spotlight like that, but I think -- I think what women know who have family members, whether you're carrying for your parents or your children or a sick relative, that the warmth and dedication of a family is what really, I think, shows its strength.

REP. MARY FALLIN (R-OK): (From tape.) I think it's actually going to help our party from the standpoint that she's going to be showing how real-life problems can be dealt with.

REP. MICHELE BACHMANN (R-MN): (From tape.) She stood for life with her Down syndrome baby. She's standing for life now with her daughter with the unplanned pregnancy. She and her husband will be there to support her daughter, her new son-in-law, and her grandchild. So actually she's demonstrating a great depth of love, compassion, caring for her family, and caring for people on unfortunate circumstance.

MS. ERBE: While the majority of American women are pro-choice, delegates told us they hope abortion and family values will be key issues in this election.

CAROL CROBSTAD: (From tape.) It's extremely important to me to be pro-life. I think I'm pro-choice, but your choice is made long before you get pregnant, and there is no lack of education. So if you're choosing to get pregnant, you have a baby. And if you don't choose to get pregnant, then don't choose to get pregnant. Don't do an abortion and kill a baby. So that's probably my number one issue.

CHERI LOVE: (From tape.) As a strong, conservative Southern woman, I love her Christian values. That appeals to me the most.

MELISSA STEPOVICH: (From tape.) Any time a child comes into this world, that's a beautiful and special and wonderful moment for a family. I think it's a family -- it's a family issue and I think the Palins are loving, wonderful parents.

And it's a wonderful thing for them.

MS. ERBE: Aside from the abortion issue, Tennessee Representative Marsha Blackburn says Palin's son's deployment to Iraq next week will draw in another group key to President Bush's success in 2004: security moms.

REP. BLACKBURN: (From tape.) Interestingly enough, I think there's a big generation of security moms. They want to be certain that the 21st century and our future is as secure and as hopeful as the 20th century has been.

MS. ERBE: Overall, Republican women believe McCain's choice of a female vice president will not only attract new women voters to the Republican Party, but will help to get more women involved politically.

REP. VIRGINIA FOXX (R-NC): (From tape.) I hope that it sends a message to people that the Republican Party is really the progressive party in this country. We are willing to name a woman to be vice president.

MS. ERBE: So Congresswoman Norton, does the selection of Sarah Palin as McCain's vice presidential running mate actually make the GOP more progressive than the Democratic Party?

DEL. NORTON: I'm afraid not, Bonnie; just the opposite. Palin's key value to this ticket is that she consolidates, brings back, the wandering base.

MS. SETMAYER: Well, if we're talking lowercase progressive, then absolutely. She is a working mother of five children. She has more executive experienced than the two male senators on the other side of the ticket. So I would say that that's progress.

MS. BEYER: What we saw the last two weeks were the two Americas. We saw one convention that was diverse, that was progressive, and another convention that reflected the America my father grew up in. I think that the Palin nomination doesn't change that.

MS. JAMES: If you're talking progressive in terms of diversity, it doesn't pass the straight face test to say that Republicans are more diverse, and I am one. Quite frankly, the Democrats did this 24 years ago. We've got a lot of work to do within my party.

MS. ERBE: All right. Let's start -- because there's so much to talk to about with Sarah Palin -- Senator Obama asked about her pregnant 17-year-old daughter who's getting married to the father of the child, said, family's off limits. Right approach for a politician maybe, but what about for pundits? Does it not raise issues such as is it the smartest thing to force a 17-year-old pregnant girl into marriage?

MS. BEYER: These are all parent questions. These are not political questions. And I think that the point that was made on the tape that there have been a lot of people who have run for office who've had many children of many different ages in many different circumstances, we've never put a father on the spot as a father. What we've done is we've asked him about his political positions and we've looked at his career in a separate way. I think --

MS. ERBE: But wait a minute. The media just put John Edwards on the spot as a father of an illegitimate so-called love child. That's not really accurate that we haven't ever considered these things in the perspective of a -- with a man.

MS. BEYER: If you're suggesting that we've made a mistake not looking at how his role as a father might affect his role as a political leader, I just don't think that the first time we do it, when someone is actively running for office, it should be with a woman because it certainly looks to me like a double standard. And I have to say, I think Barack Obama handled it with humanity, with compassion as a father, answering a question about a child in a difficult situation. I really was very proud of him.

MS. ERBE: But there are some policy issues here; for example, knowing that her daughter was pregnant, was it good public policy to put the spotlight on this pregnant 17-year-old like this? Secondly, abstinence-only education -- does that not make her daughter a poster child for -- that it's not working.

MS. JAMES: Well, first of all, we don't know what kind of sex education she gave her daughter, so we can't make any presumptions there.

MS. ERBE: But we know she's an ardent supporter of abstinence- only education and said in a questionnaire to the (Eagle ?) Forum that she would never fund complete sex education in the public schools.

MS. BEYER: And not only that, she had line-item vetoed -- taken 20 percent off the budget of a program to help pregnant teens. I have to say, it does shine a light on some policy issues.

MS. JAMES: Quite frankly, Bonnie, I think this is something that all of us at this table ought to be able to agree about, and that is that as a woman who's stepping on to the public stage, she -- it is obvious to me that by media standards she was held to an entirely different standard, public policy questions --

MS. ERBE: Was she the victim of sexism?

MS. JAMES: No question about it. No question about it -- as was Hillary, and I defended her when she was as well. But quite frankly, if you want to have a debate about abstinence only sex education, sure. If you want to have a debate about abortion as an option, sure. I think those are all valid and I think they're all important.

Nobody said Nancy Pelosi couldn't do her job because she had five children. Nobody asked Barack Obama, how in the world are you going to be able to parent your children when you're president of the United States? And I might add, as vice president she gets a cook, she gets a chauffer, she gets a gardener; she gets some help. I think the mothers out there would say, hmm, maybe it would be a little easier.

DEL. NORTON: The press gets blamed because the press is who asks these questions, but frankly -- here am I defending the press, who would have thought it? (Laughter.) The press -- the press in fact found some mothers asking these questions so that gave them permission, frankly, to do what you can, believe that all mothers -- indeed, on this very program, we have discussed in the past how many liberal, for that matter, professional women are deciding to stay at home for at least the first several years of the lives of their children. Now, the fact that we -- some of us have different ways of doing it still leaves open the question that it is for each woman to decide and the press cannot be blamed for raising what they hear among -- if I may say so -- the electorate.

(Cross talk.)

MS. ERBE: Tara, I want to get first to the sexism. What -- I saw one example that I thought was horrendously sexist of a woman in an American flag bikini sporting a rifle and Sarah -- it was going around the Internet like crazy. Her face had been pasted in. Now, if that isn't sexist, I don't know what is. But what's your favorite example of sexism, where do you --

MS. SETMAYER: Well, I think that the fact that they are -- we've already addressed most of it. The fact that they're questioning her ability to do her job because she's a mother of five and because she's the governor of a small state --

MS. ERBE: I haven't seen so much that as much as putting her 17- year-old pregnant daughter in the spotlight, which is more of a legitimate -- and Nancy Pelosi, by the way, was a grandmother by the time she became House speaker. So there's -- didn't have young children.

MS. SETMAYER: Well, I was at the convention, so as far as watching all the news coverage and how they did it, I wasn't as privy to that because I was in the convention black hole, but I can tell you that on the ground, when we first found out about the 17-year-old's pregnancy, I know a lot of people went, "oh, my God" because we knew what was coming. But then, if you think about it, yes, it's a private family matter. It does raise some issues. I think the media did have a legitimate -- they had a legitimate beef to go after her to question certain things, but I think at some point they have to end it. And when you're in crisis management, get it out there, tell the story, put it all out there, and let's move on. And it is a private family matter.

And at this point, I'm glad that Obama came out and made the statement that he gave that children are off limits, but it does raise some legitimate questions, and it shifted the discussion a little bit away from the extraordinary achievements of Sarah Palin and what she has done as a woman, which I admire, to this whole discussion about her 17 year old daughter. But hopefully that's over with now and we can talk about who she is.

MS. ERBE: We will move on to yet another aspect from Palin's nomination to her beliefs.

Some Obama supporters and media critics say Governor Palin's beliefs are extreme and out of touch with mainstream voters. Palin belongs to a conservative evangelical church. She advocates teaching creationism in schools and believes abortion should be banned, even in cases of rape and incest. She recently addressed a group of students from her hometown church, asking them to pray for the troops in Iraq because --

GOV. PALIN: (From tape.) Our leaders, our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God.

MS. ERBE: An avid hunter, Palin supports the controversial practice of aerial hunting, slaughtering wolves and game from low flying aircraft. The practice was outlawed by the federal government in 1972, but Alaska used a loophole to start issuing aerial hunting licenses. As governor, Palin promotes the practice with cash incentives for proof of a kill.

Will these personal belief positions of Palin's turn on or off former Hillary Clinton supporters?

MS. JAMES: Oh, if you add the caveat former Hillary Clinton supporters, I don't know that anything would bring them over to the Republican side or have them sign up. If you ask the question, will the positions and the views that she has make her more appealing to folks out in mainstream America, probably yes. And I think one of the biggest mistakes that Democrats make is when they line up these views, call them extreme, and by doing so they have little wonderful church lady sitting at home, looking at the television saying, they just called me extreme. No, I'm not.

DEL. NORTON: (Unintelligible) -- call them extreme, but I don't see how you can call the views you've just heard "mainstream views." The fact is that this woman is one of them in every sense of the word, and --

MS. JAMES: One of what?

DEL. NORTON: -- one of this party and its far right wing. And it says much about the weakness of the McCain campaign that they have to go for a true red, blue -- what is it -- woman and for -- that it's a woman, I am pleased. They had to go to the wing of their party that they normally take for granted in order to get a vice presidential candidate.

MS. BEYER: And let me say this. Let me say this. The one thing we were worried about with John McCain was we will -- this guy has an appeal to independents. He's the only guy that we're really afraid of. Well, he just took that ace off the table because what he has done has not only energized his own base, but by putting such a right wing candidate on the ticket, he's energized our base. We raised $10 million in the 24 hours after her speech. And so Hillary women are coming to us very quickly and I think independent voters who are turned off by the extremes of both parties, are not going to respond to this.

MS. SETMAYER: Well, we'll see about that, considering that the left -- Democratic ticket is the most liberal, left wing ticket with the number one liberal senator and number three liberal senator on the ticket if you want to talk about extremes. I think that certainly some of these views that people are finding out now about Sarah Palin -- they're Alaska specific. We were talking about this before. Alaska is a different frontier than most of America. So for something that I may not agree with hunting wolves and I -- that to me, as a Northeastern woman, more cosmopolitan than Alaska, I guess, yes to me -- I'm not too thrilled about that. But I would be -- I'm happier that there's a woman on the ticket that supports my right to own a weapon, my Second Amendment constitutional right to bear arms. To me, I think people will respond more to the broader -- the broader concept of certain policy positions than something so specific to Alaska.

MS. ERBE: What about -- what I discovered this week is that in her speech when -- a week ago, Friday, when Senator McCain first brought her to -- announced she was his running mate and then also in her convention speech, she used the term that she would serve with a "servant's heart." This is specifically an evangelical Christian phrase meaning that she believes that she has the constitutional right to put her religious beliefs into federal law. How particularly will women voters respond to that?

MS. JAMES: Speaking as a conservative evangelical, I can tell you what that term means. I think Obama has a servant's heart. I think Eleanor has a servant's heart. I think Megan has a servant's heart.

(Cross talk.)

MS. ERBE: -- wait. To use the term in a running for office setting, they don't do that.

MS. JAMES: But what does that mean? What that means is someone who puts service to others above themselves. And I think it's a very -- it's a wonderful term and it's an embracing term.

DEL. NORTON: But Kay, it's code. And it's all right. I'm not saying that it's code that is in any way negative. It's all embracing; she doesn't mean to exclude me, but she does mean to send a signal to a part of the Republican Party that they fear is lost to them. What about the rest of the people whom they need to win election this time?

MS. ERBE: All right, but what about the rest of the show that we need to get to? (Laughter.) I'm sorry. Behind the headlines, liberal arts education. In the six years since it became law, No Child Left Behind has brought about sweeping changes to the public education system, but not without controversy. Critics say the law's mandatory testing and narrow focus on reading and math isn't adding up to a well-rounded education. A new bipartisan group called Common Core wants to reverse the apparent death of the liberal arts education.

(Begin video segment.)

LYNNE MUNSON: I think the liberal arts and sciences are really the conduit through which people can imagine what their future can be. And without exposure to those subjects and those stories and all of that deep, rich knowledge -- foreign languages, for example, are a very important part of the liberal arts and sciences -- it's hard to really have the confidence, the base of knowledge you need to be able to go out in the world, deal with people from different backgrounds and different persuasions and create a life for yourself. Your world remains very, very small, in fact, if you don't study the liberal arts.

MS. ERBE: But Munson says as it stands now No Child Left Behind is limiting student achievement, especially among students from low- income school districts.

MS. MUNSON: If kids don't study the liberal arts, it's hard for them to imagine all the opportunities there really are in the world. If you can imagine, if you grow up particularly in a poor neighborhood where you might not be learning always a great deal about literature, about the arts, about historical figures, for example, it's hard to know what you might be able to go out and do in the world. It's hard to get that real broad picture of what opportunities exist out there for you unless you have that kind of exposure.

MS. ERBE: And Common Core's recent report finds students from all backgrounds lack the basic knowledge to succeed in today's global economy. The politically diverse group includes Munson, former special assistant to Lynn Cheney and the vice president of the left leaning American Federation of Teachers. But all agree American students are indeed getting left behind. Fewer than half of 17-year- olds surveyed knew when the Civil War occurred and a quarter could not properly identify Adolf Hitler.

MS. MUNSON: Well, remediation is certainly -- or the problem of students who are getting into college but then are not at that point capable of actually handling college work and have to enroll in a whole lot of remedial classes before they can really begin taking their college courses, this is an increasing problem. And I do believe it is probably at least somewhat attributable to the lack of liberal arts and sciences and K-12 education.

MS. ERBE: But Munson doesn't believe No Child Left Behind, which is still up for reauthorization this year, is all-bad.

MS. MUNSON: We do think that No Child Left Behind is contributing to the problem. We wouldn't -- certainly wouldn't lay all of the blame at the feet of No Child Left Behind. The problem with NCLB is that it's so narrowly focused on just making sure kids are acquiring reading and math skills, really devoid of any content knowledge whatsoever, that it's turning many, many classrooms into these kind of kill and drill environments where test prep for these very narrow tests ends up dominating the classroom. And there's very little room left for the study of history and literature and other subjects.

(End video segment.)

MS. ERBE: Is she right? Is federal policy killing off the liberal arts education?

MS. BEYER: Well, I think everybody has to worry about it when you see the results of those tests with those very simple questions to try to assess if you have any context for what's coming at you every day in American culture. We think it's so important that people take civics courses and pass tests before they become citizens of the United States. Why? Because the founding fathers wanted us to be educated when we voted.

DEL. NORTON: I hate to see liberal arts posed against reading and writing this way, as if they were either/or. They're not, and that content could be right there in what kids are reading and writing. Besides they weren't able to answer those questions even before No Child Left Behind. (Laughter.)

MS. SETMAYER: That's true. I think it's important that we don't make education too existential because what happens is kids lose the basic fundamentals of reading and writing. You need to have those foundations. And if that's watered down and kids are not able to think for themselves and problem solve, then instead they have to have these educations where everything is pretty much handed to them. There's no As or Bs. It's all "as long as you try." That kind of stuff is dangerous in education and we need to still stick to the fundamentals but not -- and let kids have the ability to think for themselves and a liberal arts educational (will come ?).

MS. JAMES: It's not either/or, it's both/and. Teachers, unfortunately, are so stressed out in the classroom today that they teach to the test. That's what they spend their time on because they're judged by it, their schools are judged by it, their school districts are judged by it. And so somehow we've got to find a way to make sure that we don't put them in that situation.

MS. ERBE: All right, and that will have to be it for this edition of "To the Contrary." Next week, women's professional football. Please join us on the web for "To the Contrary" Extra and whether your views are in agreement or to the contrary, please join us next time.

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