MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

MR. MATTHEWS: We begin tonight with one of the most respected political voices in the country, South Carolina Congressman James Clyburn.

Congressman Clyburn, here we are, a few days before the caucuses here in Nevada, about a week and a half before the big Democratic caucuses in South Carolina. What's the word from you, sir?

REP. CLYBURN: Well, Chris, it's going to be a primary in South Carolina. We will have the Republican primary while the caucuses are going on in Nevada, and then we will have the Democratic primary on the 26th. And we'll have a big debate. The Congressional Black Caucus will be sponsoring a debate at Myrtle Beach, South Carolina on Martin Luther King Jr. Day. I can think of no better way for us in South Carolina to celebrate the life and legacy of Dr. King than to have this big debate sponsored by the Congressional Black Caucus Institute just prior to the Democratic primaries.

And so I think that now that all of the candidates seem to have gotten these little sidebar issues behind us, we're now going to get back to talking about the shared vision they all have as Democrats for this country, as well as talking about their competing visions for what direction they would move into and how. And I'm looking forward to a rigorous campaign between now and the 26th of February -- January.

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, one of your colleagues, your U.S. congressional colleagues, who also seems to want to get this spat behind the party and the black community, I guess, here's Charles Rangel from New York, of course, yesterday. And then we're going to show what he said just a few hours ago to Norah O'Donnell here at MSNBC. Let's watch Charles Rangel yesterday.

REP. CHARLES RANGEL (D-NY): (From videotape.) I would challenge anybody to belittle the contribution that Dr. King has made to the world, to our country, to civil rights, and to the Voting Rights Act. But for him to suggest that Dr. King could have signed that act is absolutely stupid.

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, here, of course, is Congressman Rangel just a few hours ago here on MSNBC.

(Begin videotaped segment.)

NORAH O'DONNELL (MSNBC): You suggest he admitted his drug use in order to sell books. I mean, isn't it possible that he admitted his past drug use out of just honesty?

REP. RANGEL: Yes, no question about it. And that would have been a better statement to have made, and I wish I had said that.

MS. O'DONNELL: Well --

REP. RANGEL: But I think it was wrong for anyone to go back. That was what I was trying to say, to go back into someone's book and to raise that in a presidential race. I think that is wrong.

MS. O'DONNELL: You sound very remorseful today about your comments.

REP. RANGEL: No question about it, because I'm just so glad that the candidates have agreed that this should not be an issue, and that's far more important than anything that I misspoke.

(End videotaped segment.)

MR. MATTHEWS: Congressman Clyburn, there's so much static in the air. There's Congressman Rangel in New York trying to put this thing to bed about what he said in defending the Clinton position against the Barack position about whether Mrs. Clinton was correct in saying that Martin Luther King led the crusade for civil rights that got it to the steps of the Capitol, but then Lyndon Johnson was the one that got the bill jammed through the Senate.

Is this going to end this discussion?

REP. CLYBURN: Well, I think so and I hope so. You know, when you look at all of this, Chris, I often reflect on that conversation. I believe it was Franklin Roosevelt who had the conversation with A. Philip Randolph over the issue of civil rights. When the president said to A. Philip Randolph, "Yes, I agree with all of this that you've laid before me; now go out and make me do it," I think that that's what was taking place in the '60s. President Johnson agreed, but Martin Luther King Jr. and others went out and made him do it. And that's what he wanted done.

But none of us could have done that, because I was participating in those things with Dr. King in those days, without people like J. Everett Dirksen, who worked in the Senate and helped to break the logjams that started out in 1957 with the Civil Rights Act of '57, when you had Strom Thurmond from my state filibustering that bill.

So Democrats and Republicans did it. Blacks and whites did it. Elected officials and political activists all worked together to get this done. And I think that's how we have to solve all of our problems in this great country of ours, working together irrespective of what roles you have to play, but play your roles real well.

MR. MATTHEWS: What I'm amazed by is the virulence, the harshness of this struggle. Put aside the ethnic factor here and the history of the struggle. But here's Bob Thompson -- or Bob Johnson, rather -- of course, Bob Johnson, who headed BET all those years, talking the other day. This surprised me how strong his feelings are on this issue. And he talked to me on the phone like this too. He's very strong for Hillary Clinton, and therefore very much fighting the rivalry of Barack Obama. Let's hear Mr. Johnson here.

BOB JOHNSON (BET founder): (From videotape.) As an African- American, I am frankly insulted that the Obama campaign would imply that we are so stupid that we would think Hillary and Bill Clinton, who have been deeply and emotionally involved in black issues, when Barack Obama was doing something in the neighborhood that I won't say what he was doing, but he said it in his book, when they have been involved.

MR. MATTHEWS: You know, that's pretty rough talk in a primary, isn't it, I mean, to go after a guy's weakness like that and just rip the scab off it like that?

REP. CLYBURN: Well, I think in the second clip from Charlie Rangel that you just aired, Charlie expressed his remorsefulness. And I know that Bob Johnson is very remorseful about those comments. Bob is one of the best friends I have in this country. I've known him since his days working here on Capitol Hill, a long time before he became a billionaire. He's a great guy and who I think got caught up in the moment.

MR. MATTHEWS: Yeah, I wonder about this moment.

Let me ask you about the -- how would you describe, Congressman, the real sort of -- well, the divide between the Obama people and the Clinton people? If you had to step back and write it for the history books, how do the sides divide? Is it age difference? Is it old loyalties? Is it aspirations of younger people to have more optimism about an African-American being elected? What is it all about?

REP. CLYBURN: Well, it's all about the pressures that build up in any campaign. I've been in a few campaigns myself. I've sometimes misspoken on occasion. And all the time, when you're contesting each other, you tend to go out and try to support your positions as best you can. And a lot of times your supporters get carried away. And we ought to just accept people's explanations for why they said what they may have said and then go forward from there.

I think that we ought not spend a whole lot of time on political correctness in a situation like this but accept people's explanation, put it behind us and move forward, because what we're trying to do in this country is exactly what you talked about at the top of your show.

We don't want to see, four or five years from now, 45 million people without health care. We don't want to see, four or five years from now, us still bogged down in Iraq. We want to see new energy policies that will make us energy-independent. We want to see a housing market that once again restores the American dream.

We want to see every child with health care, every parent with the opportunity to have a good job, every student with access to post- secondary education. That's what we want to see. That's the vision that we all aspire to. And these competing visions on how we get there, we need to allow them to go forward unfettered.

MR. MATTHEWS: Do you think, as a Democrat, that both Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton both have a decent shot to win the general election?

REP. CLYBURN: Absolutely, no question about it. You know, I remember when my good friend, Deval Patrick, first announced for governor of Massachusetts. You and I both know a lot about the history of Massachusetts on issues such as race. Nobody ever thought at the time that he would be successful and do it the way he did it.

When the public has a change to take the measure of all the candidates, especially when you're going one on one, Democrats versus Republicans, one candidate versus the other, they then take a measure, and they then make a decision as to which one of those candidates would be best suited going forward.

We're going through a process now with these primaries -- the Republicans having their contest with four or five people; we've now got a contest with three or four people -- when all this winnows out, sometime around the middle of February, we are going to know exactly who our standard-bearers are. And the American public will take a look at these two people, and they will take a measure and make a decision. And I think, whether it's Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, John Edwards, whoever it is, I think they've got a good shot.

MR. MATTHEWS: Okay. Thank you very much, U.S. Congressman James Clyburn --

REP. CLYBURN: Thank you.

MR. MATTHEWS: -- dare I say, a great man. Thank you, sir.

REP. CLYBURN: Thank you so much.

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