PBS "To The Contrary" - Transcript

Interview

MS. ERBE: This week on "To the Contrary," American women are having more children today than three decades ago. Then, big girls may not cry, but male presidential candidates sure can. Behind the headlines, baby boomers take on new jobs after retiring from long careers.

(Musical break.)

MS. ERBE: Hello, I'm Bonnie Erbe. Welcome to "To the Contrary," a discussion of news and social trends from diverse perspectives. Up first, a modern day baby boom.

While some European countries offer women economic benefits to bear children, here in the U.S. the fertility rate is at its highest since the early 1970s without such benefits. The National Center for Health Statistics put the U.S. fertility rate at 2.1 for last year. That's the average number of children an American woman needs to bear for a generation to replace itself. The rate spiked most significantly among women in their early 20s. Some experts say the higher fertility rate fosters economic growth and more family friendly workplaces. Some say it results from massive immigration and the fact immigrant women bear more children than their U.S.-born counterparts, even immigrants from Canada and the UK. The overall fertility rate among immigrant women hit 2.9 in the year 2002, the latest year for which such figures were available. Last year, U.S. population topped the epic 300 million mark, making the U.S. the third most populous country in the world behind India and China. The Census Bureau predicts U.S. population levels will hit 400 million in less than 40 years.

So Dr. Healy, why are American women having more babies?

MS. HEALY: Well, I think there're a lot of factors, but infertility treatments have got to be one of them.

DEL. NORTON (D-DC): Gosh, Bonnie, there's a study in search of applications, but look, as long as increasing the population increases their happiness, I say good for women.

MS. DOMINGUEZ: I think it's the immigration tsunami and I think it's a great economy that's helping these factors.

MS. GANDY: Well, some Americans are having more children and a part of that is the fact that our teenagers aren't getting the kind of sex education they deserve.

MS. ERBE: Well, okay, let's throw it out there. Which is the most important factor? Is immigration the most important factor?

MS. DOMINGUEZ: Obviously I think immigration really is fueling our society and I think there is -- a lot of them come from very strong religious backgrounds, the Catholics, the Muslims. Their culture is of large families. They come into this country with a very stable political system, very stable economy, very -- fertile grounds. (Laughter.)

DEL. NORTON: I was surprised to learn that even if you take out immigrant families, that American women are having more children than women from comparable industrialized countries.

MS. ERBE: Well, but that is because -- that is absolutely true and we talked a little bit in the opening piece, but it's a fact, for example, that Vladimir Putin in Russia ordered his parliament two years ago to set up a 10-year program essentially to bribe women to have babies because they were so far below the replacement rate.

DEL. NORTON: But they are being bribed. You see, that's what's interesting to me. European countries, advanced countries have -- almost all of them had to give extraordinary benefits that we deny women if they have babies anyway.

MS. HEALY: There may be another factor here and that is women have been putting off having children for a long time, late 20s, early 30s. This number seems to be a spike among younger women. And it may be that younger women in their 20s are saying, "I don't want to wait so long." And I think part of that is a reflection of paying attention to work-life balance -- that sort of the new word. But the younger generation says, "I'm not going to work all the time. I want to have my private life." And having a baby is a wonderful part of that private life.

MS. GANDY: Indeed, and I have to agree with that that there are some women who are making the decision not to put it off. At the same time, some employers are punishing women for taking that time out of the workforce early in their careers, and I think we need to make sure that doesn't happen.

MS. ERBE: But if that's the -- that is clearly happening over in Russia, in Estonia, et cetera, et cetera, but why is -- if that's happening there and preventing women financially from being able to afford children, why is it not happening here because clearly the same restraints are put in place here in some cases, but the women are still having the kids.

MS. GANDY: Well, I think it is happening in some ways. And if you look at different groups, you'll find that they are responding differently. My guess is that among non-immigrant communities, you will find higher child bearing among higher income families who are more capable of affording it, rather than in middle and lower middle income families, where it's very difficult to afford a baby if you don't have health care and if you don't have maternity leave.

DEL. NORTON: Well, baby boomers --

MS. DOMINGUEZ: Again, I do think our economy is a huge factor that contributes to this. I think --

MS. ERBE: Well, that's also what draws all the immigration, jobs, when they can't get jobs --

DEL. NORTON: Well, I don't think it's the economy. We had an extraordinary economy in the '60s and we had 1.7 children, the lowest birth rate. I think we've got --

MS. ERBE: Yes, but you also -- you didn't have mass immigration.

DEL. NORTON: Yes, but we're starting. We're talking about American women absent the immigration --

(Cross talk.)

MS. ERBE: No, Congresswoman Norton because actually I called the Population Reference Bureau and they said that among women 40 to 44 -- now it is one distinct age group, but it's also women who pretty much through their child bearing years -- the native-born Americans are having 1.7 children. And immigrant women of that age are having 2.2. That's a half a child different. It's statistically quite different. In other words, there wouldn't be this fertility spike without immigration.

MS. GANDY: I don't think -- my understanding from the articles I read is that if you take immigrants out of the equation, the fertility rate is still up. The numbers are still higher.

MS. ERBE: It's not -- but it's not at replacement value.

DEL. NORTON: But it's still the largest number in the western world. That's what you've got to explain.

MS. HEALY: Yes, but let's get back to what the real issue is. What it is telling us is you have countries all over the world trying to bribe women to have babies and it doesn't work. You have a place like --

MS. ERBE: It is working.

(Cross talk.)

MS. HEALY: Let me finish. A place like China where they're trying -- tell women they can't have babies and they're supposed to only have one, and it's 1.7. I think that is a personal decision. Ultimately the state is not going to tell you what to do, whether to have a baby or not to have a baby. And right now in America, having babies is a nice thing to do.

MS. ERBE: Is that at the rate of population increase that we're experiencing in this country? Is this something that everybody wants to have the population go up. We're at 300 million now, go up to 400 million in the next 40 years.

DEL. NORTON: What we don't want to have is an aging population. You do not want to have a lopsided population the way they have in Europe, where you don't have babies being born and you have a lot of old people that need to be taken care of.

MS. DOMINGUEZ: No, I think that we want balance and I think that the fact that we have more women at various ages -- they could be in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s having children -- I think it's a reflection of the ability that you -- economic ability that we have to be able to support the next generation. So again, I go back, in a way those women who call America home, not necessarily American women, but whether it's women who call America home or whether it's American women, I think, again, it's just a reflection of our great nation and the stability that we enjoy politically, socially, and economically.

MS. ERBE: All right. From higher fertility to double standards.

Is there still a gender double standard on emotional displays by politicians? Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney teared up twice while in public this past week with no apparent negative impact on his campaign. In fact, some analysts say, crying may help soften his image, but crying while campaigning is not likely to help Senator Hillary Clinton, who aired a recent campaign ad showing her with her mother and daughter, designed to overcome claims she's cold and distant.

Twenty years later, former presidential candidate Pat Schroeder is still known for her teary withdrawal speech. Given the harsh words generated about Clinton by everything from her looks to her laugh, a single teardrop could give an impression of weakness and hurt her polling numbers. This week an unflattering picture of Senator Clinton appeared on the Drudge Report website, prompting conservative radio host Rush Limbaugh to ask whether America wanted to actually watch a woman get older before their eyes on a daily basis.

So what kind of a response should he get to that kind of question?

DEL. NORTON: Well, Hillary may need to soften her image, but she doesn't need to cry in order to avoid a picture like that. In fact, she'd better not cry because stereotypes are already setting in. That's why you have that picture. Yes, this is a stereotype. Men are crying already, as Romney on the stump. But she's got to be --

MS. ERBE: Well, is there -- so there is a double standard.

DEL. NORTON: Huge double standard.

MS. ERBE: Why are we all so sure that if she cried, she'd be -- it would hurt her?

MS. HEALY: I don't think it would. I think crying is a normal human emotion. And I think people are used to it now. Maybe --

MS. ERBE: Even from women?

MS. HEALY: I think so. I think so -- as long as in an appropriate situation. I think that --

MS. ERBE: We haven't seen Speaker Pelosi cry yet.

MS. HEALY: Well, but again, is it appropriate? What you'd hate to do is to have the campaign people to come around and say, "time to cry, cry, cry." It was to be a genuine emotion relating to a genuine situation.

MS. ERBE: Okay, but if that's the case, why was it appropriate when Mitt Romney did it talking about his father, but Pat Schroeder couldn't do it when she was withdrawing from the presidential campaign?

MS. HEALY: I think talking about his father's illness or his father -- that is a -- it grabs people's heart. Everybody -- every one of us could probably tear up when we think about our parents or some of the difficult times that they might have had in their lives, so I think it depends on whether it's genuine. One interesting piece that has been said about this is that it's not Hillary's face. It's her mask. Is what she is presenting to the public genuine? And I think that's the bigger issue for her campaign.

MS. GANDY: I think that that's something that people are seeing as they have an opportunity to talk to Hillary Clinton up close and personal in smaller settings where they're not led around by this media image of who she is. But the reality is that people keep judging her by what really is a double standard. She doesn't get an opportunity to stand on her own. If she expresses emotion, she is too emotional, like stereotypical hysterical woman. If she doesn't express enough emotion, she's called calculating. There're -- for some people, there's nothing that she does that would be right.

MS. ERBE: So you two are saying -- you're saying there is no gender double standard. You're saying there still is.

MS. DOMINGUEZ: I think there're some gender double standard. We've seen it. But I do think people are --

MS. ERBE: Where did we see it?

MS. DOMINGUEZ: Well, we've seen it with Geraldine Ferraro. We've seen it -- there're certain expectations. If women cry, it's an emotional thing. Women are -- they're supposed to be smiling all the time, very pesky. There's a certain standard and I see in performance appraisals all the time when I was at commission. She's a friendly person. She smiles all the time. The guy was very quantitative, very analytical. I think there are these attitudinal biases that still exist in our society. But I do think beneath that layer people are looking for people who are genuine. And the question about Hillary is, is she really genuine?

DEL. NORTON: Oh, come on, I say, "look, Hillary, keep the cackle, lose the tears." (Laughter.) That humanizes her. When she laughs like she ordinarily laughs and tears, they would accuse her. She would be the first to be accused of putting on tears.

MS. ERBE: But what about the Limbaugh line? Let's get to that. Who wants to watch -- do we really want to watch a woman age on a daily basis before our very eyes? Could he have said that about Mitt Romney? Could he have said it about John McCain?

(Cross talk.)

MS. : -- a face made for radio.

MS. HEALY: One of the greatest statesmen in the world was Margaret Thatcher and she had a magnificent face and it aged over time, and people only loved her more.

DEL. NORTON: That was pure sexist. I don't think he would have said that even about a Democratic candidate.

MS. DOMINGUEZ: But that's a nonsense comment.

DEL. NORTON: And it's part of the Hillary hate. There's no question about it. And I hope it turns off his own middle-aged listeners as much as it's turned off I think most of us.

MS. ERBE: Do we think it'll turn of any of his listeners?

MS. DOMINGUEZ: Well I don't know how many women he has as listeners, frankly, but I do think that people are on to the fact that we have -- there're certain expectations about different individuals because of their gender.

MS. ERBE: Well, have we come to the point in this country, though, where even an older gentleman listening to Rush Limbaugh, who knew that he had jowls and lots of wrinkles, would be offended by that comment?

DEL. NORTON: I think not because one of the favorite things of photographers and journalists to do is to watch the president age. So the president generally does age and nobody says, "you're not supposed to age." He's a man. He's expected to age. So I really do think we are dealing with a double standard here. Even before the fact, the aging of a president becomes a --

MS. HEALY: Anticipating it.

DEL. NORTON: -- becomes an issue. That's double standards.

MS. HEALY: Guess what, we all age and it beats the alternative.

MS. ERBE: I just wonder -- do places like the Drudge Report and Rush Limbaugh lose credibility by going after her in such a -- does it show they don't really -- they're not serious about going after her on these issues?

MS. GANDY: They have limited credibility anyway. And as Eleanor said, there's just a lot of hating on Hillary Clinton that goes on, but I think their credibility is fairly limited in that regard to begin with.

MS. DOMINGUEZ: I think that it really plays to the audience. Was it Michael Fox, when he made fun of Michael Fox and his disability? I think it's a pattern with him. So I don't give whatever he says any credence frankly.

MS. ERBE: All right. Behind the headlines, the business case. For the past two weeks, we have shown segments of our new documentary "9 to 5: No Longer," which reveals today's businesses are creating more flexible, family-friendly schedules for their employees. Today, we look at why many companies are finding as baby boomers retire changing the way the workplace functions doesn't just benefit workers, it also helps the businesses bottom line.

(Begin video segment.)

MS. ERBE: Meet Craig Wallace. He's a 78-year-old grandfather still working 24 hours a week at the Borders Store in Maryland. The company hired him full time 11 years ago, after he enjoyed a long career as a doctor and assistant surgeon general. Trading in his stethoscope was the right decision for Wallace.

CRAIG WALLACE: It probably keeps me younger, keeps me abreast of what's going on. I learned an awful lot about things that I wouldn't have otherwise learned. For example, when I went there, somebody wanted an Eminem record and I searched diligently for M&M and I realized it was spelled that way. And I'm kind of -- thanks to Borders I'm more with it than I would be otherwise. I feel that it keeps me 21 above the neck if not below the neck.

MS. : I think we're so non-creative. We wouldn't know what to do if we retired.

MR. WALLACE: I really didn't want to retire, but it was time to retire. Borders was literally the only show in town. And I applied and after three times, I was hired. They turned me down a couple of times. They said I wouldn't -- they didn't think I'd suffer fools wisely. But I've been very happy there.

DAN SMITH: You can tell from talking with Craig what he brings to the store. He's lived in five or six different parts of the world. He's been a doctor. He studied law. He has a knowledge base that you just don't find in everybody on the street every day.

MS. ERBE: According to Smith, the decision to hire older people isn't about being nice. It's good business.

MR. SMITH: A little over 50 percent of all books in America are purchased by those that are over 45 years old. If we can make our store employees look like our customer base, we think that's the right angle to take. Older workers are a perfect fit for our business. First of all, they bring a tremendous amount of life experience in the store. And if you'd been around a bookstore like we're in it right now, you'll realize that it's knowledge that sells books. If you have that knowledge about what people are looking for, you're better able to find that product for them.

The side benefit is the stability and the dependability of the older worker. It's about the business very clearly. When you can have six times less turnover with somebody over 50 than under 30, that's a big difference.

MS. ERBE: Another motivating factor for Borders and its 12,000 stores is that the beginning of retirement for the baby boom generation is creating a worker shortage.

MR. SMITH: We really started to take a look at the older worker as a good change of pace, a good way for us to staff our stores. We've gone from having just 6 percent of our employees being over 50 to 16 percent being over 50 today. And it's just been a wonderful focused effort for us.

MS. ERBE: For Wallace and Borders it's been a great long-term relationship. The company's health insurance plan has helped, too.

MR. WALLACE: Well I had a pacemaker and two hips replaced, all thanks to Borders. I wouldn't work if I felt I couldn't handle the job.

MARCIE PITT-CATSOUPHES: If businesses are targeting older customers, they may find it very beneficial if some of their employees look like their customers as well. So that can be an advantage in some cases.

MS. ERBE: And if Wallace ever got tired of the summers in Washington, D.C., Borders, like CBS and Home Depot, allows workers to shuttle between different store locations during the year. It's a tool to keep seasonal stores stocked with valuable employees while accommodating lifestyle choices.

NANCY LIPSCOMB: I have all the freedom that you could imagine in my career.

MS. ERBE: Nancy Lipscomb has worked for Home Depot for the past 14 years. In 2005, Lipscomb made a change. She started working in two different stores during the year, one in North Carolina, one in Florida. It was an idea inspired by other snowbirds.

MS. LIPSCOMB: Being a Floridian, I noticed that people did that as they grew older. So I thought, well that would be a good plan and it's just a nice feature, where you can have two homes and transfer back and forth, live in different climates, different environments.

MS. ERBE: So Lipscomb commutes between the two stores, working at each during their busy seasons. Although only a small numbers of employees have taken advantage of the snowbird program, its validity is clear to Home Depot.

DOUG HARTLEY: It saves us time, saves us money. From a customer service standpoint, when we already have associates that are fully trained in their jobs, they can come into our store on day one ready to roll.

My favorite thing about working with Nancy, she is so versatile. She has such an easygoing attitude and she'll do whatever we really need her to do in the store, and she's been trained pretty much to cover any area we need.

MS. ERBE: Lipscomb's partner, Debbie, a former executive, understands the strategy behind the program too.

MS. DEBBIE: Being in the HR field for many years, I know what the cost of the turnover is, and when you get to keep skilled, seasoned employees, it's a huge plus for a company to do that. And it motivates the employees to stay longer and continue to do good and perform well.

MS. LIPSCOMB: Oh, I love it. I love it.

MS. ERBE: Packing up every six months is not always easy, though.

MS. DEBBIE: The biggest disadvantage is probably trying to remember where I left some of my things. When it was time to leave last year and go up to North Carolina, it was very difficult to leave, but as soon as we got up there, we almost didn't want to come back again. So I figure that's a good sign that we're doing the right thing.

ELLEN GALINSKY: The companies that have changed have found that it's in their business self interest to change. They're not doing this to be nice, although they like being nice. They're doing this because it really improves their business or improves their organization.

MS. LIPSCOMB: Most people go to Home Depot on their days off just for kicks. I get to do it every day. I get to do what most people dream of.

(End video segment.)

MS. ERBE: So, Cari Dominguez, when you were at the EEOC, did you see possibly fewer age discrimination cases because companies are doing more of this or more age discrimination cases because not enough companies are doing it -- allowing people to phase into retirement or work part-time through retirement?

MS. DOMINGUEZ: Age discrimination is actually the second fastest growing segment of the charge activity of the commission, so we see a lot of age discrimination going on. But I think these are very forward-thinking companies. I think it's great for our economy. I think to rule out talent and ability because of age or any other kind of irrelevant factor is really silly -- stupid actually -- for the American economy. So --

DEL. NORTON: Age discrimination complaints, I'm sure you found as well, is a staple of companies trying to get rid of white males because they're trying to clear out -- clear out some of the, not talent, but some of the high -- higher cost employees. And what I think these baby boomers are doing is really remarkable to see, very important to see. They kind of had taken a big rap for the negative things they're doing. And now, by their sheer numbers they are changing the workplace.

They -- because of their wonderful work habits, because of their excellent training -- are on their merits changing the American workplace. Let's women do the same thing.

MS. ERBE: Do we think that businesses are really making more -- better profits when they hire a more diverse workforce? Does it get necessarily reflected in the bottom line?

MS. HEALY: Well I think personally you're going to get very motivated workers. It's clear somebody who is there at age 65 really wants to be there. But the other thing from bottom line perspective, as I was watching this, is they don't have to pay their health insurance. This population over 65 is all covered by Medicare, so they don't have to -- you're not going to hear that complaint. But seriously, I think that it is cost effective because they're getting a good talented workforce that's motivated and if they want to work part time, they are flexible. I think it's great. And I think it gives a wisdom to the workplace, which is also very nice.

MS. GANDY: Of course, there are two different situations here. Hiring a very, very highly skilled person to work at minimum wage in a bookstore may indeed be a boon for the bookstore, but we also see people who've been laid off in their 50s or early 60s, having a very, very, very hard time getting a job at their original high level, as opposed to getting a job in a book store.

MS. ERBE: Well, and also there is the reverse, too, which is what we found in doing this documentary, is that there's phased retirement for professionals and more flexibility, quite frankly, at the upper rungs of the pay scale than there is for people at low -- in low income jobs. So how long will it take, if ever, before we get to the point where domestic workers, retail clerks, people working at McDonald's and places like that will be able to have flexibility in their work schedules?

MS. DOMINGUEZ: I think that this is driving workplace flexibility. You see it every day, every company coming up with independent workers, contract workers, part time workers. There's a whole cafeteria of type of workers now that didn't exist 10 years ago. And another thing is that it sort of drives out some of the dysfunctional behaviors. A lot of times, when you would hire 25-30 year olds, they're all competing for the next promotion. A lot of these baby boomers say, "hey, I've been there. I've done that. I'm not interested in your job, so relax." And I think that provides some flexibility to that. Besides, baby boomers don't want to do Sudoku for the rest of their lives. (Laughter.) They have a lot more to contribute.

DEL. NORTON: But you won't find people who have had tough jobs looking for jobs afterwards. You won't find people who've stood on their feet all day. You won't find manufacturing workers. This is for workers who were office workers and who were white-collar workers.

MS. ERBE: All right. That's it for this edition of "To the Contrary." Next week, women from across the political spectrum give their views on the past year and what's to come in '08. Please join us on the web for "To the Contrary" Extra. Whether your views are in agreement or to the contrary, please join us next time.

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