MSNBC Super Tuesday - Transcript

Interview

MR. SHUSTER: In the latest University of Iowa poll, Mitt Romney now has a commanding 23-point lead over Giuliani, whose tied at 13 percent with former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee. Fred Thompson trails in fourth with 11 percent. and Senator John McCain has just 6 percent.

Senator Lindsay Graham is the national co-chairman for Senator McCain's campaign, and he joins us now. And Senator, thanks for being with us.

SEN. GRAHAM: Glad to be with you.

MR. SHUSTER: Senator Graham, several McCain staffers believe that the senator should focus all of his attention now on New Hampshire and follow the same strategy as seven years ago, when he basically ignored Iowa given how badly he's been doing.

What's your view?

SEN. GRAHAM: You know, that's a good question. I really don't know. He's not doing that well in Iowa, according to polls. And I think John does have to win in New Hampshire; he's won there before. So I think that's something that the campaign will have to sit down and figure out.

The folks in Iowa are great people. It's a caucus, it's a little different than South Carolina and New Hampshire in terms of the number of people that will turn out and the profile of the people who will turn out. So we'll have to wait and see about that. But John's doing very well in New Hampshire. He's doing very well in South Carolina. And we'll continue to make the argument the best we can that John is the most reliable, electable conservative in the field.

MR. SHUSTER: Senator Graham, last weekend, Senator McCain, as you know, said that he would not rule voting against President Bush's nominee for attorney general, Michael Mukasey, because of his failure to answer questions on whether he considered waterboarding torture.

SEN. GRAHAM: Right.

MR. SHUSTER: Senator Graham, is waterboarding torture in your view?

SEN. GRAHAM: Yeah, I think waterboarding is illegal. The technique, as I understand it, to me, runs afoul of the Geneva Convention, which the Supreme Court has imposed on the war on terror; it runs afoul of the Detainee Treatment Act; the War Crimes Act. And it's hard for a nominee to answer hypotheticals -- I'm speaking for myself -- but I'm comfortable that after today, Judge Mukasey will give an answer about the technique that will allow myself and Senator McCain and I think any reasonable person to support his nomination.

He's a really good judge. He's a fair-minded guy. He's an independent-minded fellow. He can't issue legal opinions based on hypotheticals; you have to have real people with real facts. But I think today he will let us know from a personal point of view he finds this technique out of bounds and repugnant. And that's what I wanted to hear, and I think we'll be able to settle that issue today.

MR. SHUSTER: So in other words, Senator Graham, you're expecting that Michael Mukasey is going to give you either written testimony or some sort of statement clarifying what waterboarding is. If he does not clarify it, though, if he gives another sort of muddled answer, would you then withhold your vote for him?

SEN. GRAHAM: Well, I think I'm not going to have that dilemma. I've always said that I want to win this war, and the way you win this war is adhering to our values, which are so much stronger than the enemy.

I know what they do to our young men and women when they capture them. But when we capture someone, including a terrorist, it becomes about us, and our country has led the world when it comes to Geneva Convention compliance, and we've maintained the moral high ground for over 60 years in the are of the law of armed conflict. And we need not give that up.

If we somehow must abandon our values, that would be a defeat in this war for us, self-inflicted. And we're not going to have that dilemma. I think Judge Mukasey will give a good answer today repudiating this technique, and he will be a very good attorney general. And I hope he gets a fair shake.

MR. SHUSTER: Senator Graham, the new chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Mike Mullen, describes U.S. forces as "breakable" because of the war in Iraq. And he argues against attacking Iran right now. Is he wrong?

SEN. GRAHAM: Well, I don't think anybody wants to attack Iran right now. I think the president is absolutely right to create a third alternative rather than the two we have today, which is to sit on the sidelines and allow Iran to develop a nuclear weapon or to use military force.

The first question that people in my business have to answer in Congress, do you believe the Iranian government is pursuing a nuclear weapons program, not a peaceful nuclear power program? The answer, to me, is yes. I think they're going down the road of enriching uranium to develop a weapon, not just produce peaceful nuclear power.

If you believe that, as I do, then we need to stop that from happening. And one way to do it is to have the world united around sanctions that would deter that behavior, change the course of the Iranian regime, change their desire.

MR. SHUSTER: But, Senator Graham, as you know, the world is not united behind sanctions --

SEN. GRAHAM: Right. Right.

MR. SHUSTER: -- Russia won't go along. And the other thing that's a little confusing about your argument is that the Bush administration now seems to be saying that if there is military action against Iran, it would be sort of tactical targeting of Iran for their meddling in Iraq. There hasn't been any sort of idea that now we're going to attack Iran because of their nuclear weapons.

SEN. GRAHAM: Well, I think the president said a couple of days ago or last week that if you wanted to prevent World War III, make sure this regime doesn't get a nuclear weapon. That's a pretty direct wake-up call to the world.

You're right. The United Nations' resolutions to impose sanctions on Iran had been vetoed by Russia and China. The European Union sanctions, I think, are weak. We have very strong sanctions, but they're unilateral.

If the world wants to avoid a military engagement with Iran, as I do, then we need to come together behind sanctions that will deter behavior. The current sanction regime does not want to change the behavior of this government in Iran, which is designed -- which is moving toward a nuclear weapon. So if you want to avoid military action, let's get together now while we still have time because a military strike against Iran will be a very dangerous event. But you've got to weigh that against them having a nuclear weapon.

MR. SHUSTER: Senator Graham, real quickly, back to the campaign. What does John McCain need to do to win in your home state of South Carolina?

SEN. GRAHAM: Well, you've got 43 percent of the vote against President Bush. Focus on the fact that he's the most reliable social and economic conservative, given everybody else in the field. And focus on his commander in chief credentials. He was for the surge when nobody else was. He understands this enemy and the war better than anybody else that I know of running for president. And he will be a commander in chief we can be proud of that will protect us. And he will be a reformer without question because he's done it, not just talked about it. Just focus on John McCain's life story and the way he's conducted himself, and he'll be fine with the voters in South Carolina.

MR. SHUSTER: Senator Graham, I think he's also lucky that he has you on his side.

SEN. GRAHAM: Well, thank you.

MR. SHUSTER: But, Senator Graham, thanks for coming in. We appreciate it.

SEN. GRAHAM: Very kind. Thank you.

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