NBC Meet The Press-Transcript

NBC Meet The Press-Transcript

MR. RUSSERT: And we are back. Senator Lindsey Graham, welcome back to MEET THE PRESS.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Thank you, sir.

MR. RUSSERT: Let me show you some latest polling data on the war in Iraq with the American people.

SEN. GRAHAM: OK. Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT: The war in Iraq, the president's proposal for more troops, 32 percent support it, 67 percent—two out of three Americans—oppose. And look at this, was the war worth the fight? Thirty-four percent say yes; not worth fighting, 64 percent. Can the president continue the war in Iraq when two out of three Americans are against the war?

SEN. GRAHAM: Yeah, and I think those polls also say that two out of three Americans do not want to cut off funding. What do—what are the polls telling us? I'm no expert, but here's what I think's going on, based on conservation talks in South Carolina, is that people are frustrated. They're beginning to doubt whether the Iraqis can get their act together among themselves. Are we're in the middle of a group of people, no matter how long we stay and how much money we spend and how many Americans are killed, are they capable of pulling this off? I think people doubt that. And they're frustrated that—based by our own expectations. The biggest mistake we made early on was underselling how hard it would be. I think people have lost sight due to frustration, that it's part of the overall war on terror.

The president's going forward based on an assumption that a failed state in Iraq is a mighty blow in the overall war on terror. He's going forward based on the assumption that, if you put military reinforcement, political and economic reinforcement, you can turn it around. You're never going to have democracy with this much violence. General Petraeus has come up with a plan that requires more troops. The goal is to surge on all fronts—militarily, politically and economically—to give the Iraqi government the capacity and the breathing space to make these hard decisions. Americans don't want to lose in Iraq. That's why they don't want to cut off funding. But Americans are not so sure we can win. And I can't guarantee that we win, but the best chance we have left is to follow General Petraeus. Eighty-one-to-nothing, the Senate confirmed him. And all these resolutions and all this talk about what to do, if you don't cut off funding, the Congress is getting itself in a dangerous situation Constitutionally, and every resolution has the effect of delivering a death blow to General Petraeus' plan, which I think is our last, best chance to win.

MR. RUSSERT: Well, the—but the Democrats are saying we should spend only a year in Iraq; and if you complete your service you shouldn't be kept in the service, you should be allowed to come home; and that you should be ready, prepared to go over there with the proper equipment. How could you be opposed to that?

SEN. GRAHAM: The truth is that Jack Murtha's a wonderful fellow. He is using the readiness issue to stop the surge. And I want to work with Jack on readiness, but this is not about the readiness issue. He said publicly this is about stopping something he's against. The Democrat Party is the dog that caught the car. What do you do now? The left is saying get out yesterday. The reason we don't have a vote on cut off funding is because the American public understand that's responsible. So all of these efforts to micromanage the war—I've been a military lawyer for 20-something years. Some of these resolutions are just nightmares for a commander. You can fight al-Qaeda, but you can't fight people involved in sectarian violence. You can go here, and you can't go there. The Congress cannot—there's a reason there's only one commander in chief. So, if you're not willing to cut off funding, which is the Congress' responsibility, then everything else really hampers General Petraeus. It's really a signal to him that, "We have no faith in you." Either stop him from going or give him the resources to do their job. Everything is else is just political theater. That's dangerous.

MR. RUSSERT: Well, the Democrats are also going to propose, according to Congressman Murtha, that the troops come home in six months if the Iraqis do not stop the violence. And here's where the American people are on that. Should U.S. withdraw troops? Yes, 42; 56 percent, a solid majority, say withdraw the troops.

SEN. GRAHAM: All I can tell you is that we're not going to win this war through polling, and we're going to learn through our mistakes or we'll lose this war. The biggest mistake we made early on is not having enough troops, letting the situation get out of hand. Assuming the best, never planning for the worst. Now we're adjusting, late in the game. Whether it works, I don't know, but I can promise you this: This is our last, best chance. General Petraeus has a plan that makes sense to me. It's not more of the same. Thank God there's not 535 commander in chiefs, there's only one.

So what I am saying is give this a chance. No guarantees it will work. But if you start putting time limits and deadlines and benchmarks, then it is a road map for al-Qaeda and other extremists in Iraq. If you pass these new resolutions that say, "We're coming out unless A, B, C and D is achieved; if this level of violence exists in six months, we're going to leave," you're telling the terrorists and the extremists exactly what they have to do to win. All of these benchmarks, designed by patriotic people to tell the Iraqis you got to get your act together is also a signal to the people we're fighting and are killing our kids. They know what they'll have to do, because you're giving them a road map as to what make America—what will make America leave.

So here's what I'm saying. If you can't cut off funding, if you're not willing to stop the troops from going, quit putting out one idea after another that cripples the commander, invades the commander in chief's responsibility, and tells the enemy exactly what they have to do to win. I am going to fight these ideas because they're not responsible. If you don't like this war, if you think it's a lost cause, then cut off funding. Otherwise, let the generals be the generals.

MR. RUSSERT: But many Americans will say that those who supported the war are saying, "Trust us, see this through," the same people who said, "There are weapons of mass destruction. General Shinseki's wrong, we don't need hundreds of thousands of troops. We will be greeted as liberators."

SEN. GRAHAM: Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT: "The cost of the war," according to Lawrence Lindsey, "won't be more than $200 billion."

SEN. GRAHAM: Yeah.

MR. RUSSERT: "There won't be any sectarian violence." All those judgments were wrong. Why should the American people continue to belive in those same people who had so many misjudgments leading up and executing the war?

SEN. GRAHAM: I'm here on your show, and you can get clips from my past appearances, I was wrong about certain things. The weapons of mass destruction issue, the whole world was wrong about it. I think Saddam believed he had the weapons, but apparently he didn't. Here's what I can promise you, and no one wants to talk about this. Do you leave in six months, do you put benchmarks, do you pull out 50,000 now and wonder what happens? Last week, Senator Edwards says, "I'm not so sure what would happen if you bought into my idea of taking 50,000 people out of Iraq now. I'm not so sure what would happen if you say we're going to leave it X amount of time unless benchmarks are achieved by the Iraqi government."

Here's the one thing I can guarantee you, that if a failed state in Iraq occurs, the war gets bigger, not smaller. Here's what I'd like to do going forward. Give the commanders what they haven't had in the past, the resources they need, give them the breathing space to do it, allow the Iraqi people to regroup, but insist that they do better, and understand that a failed state is a nightmare for this country. Plan for the worst, and don't assume the best. All these democratic resolutions, none of them think through what happens if we leave Iraq in six months or a year. I believe very passionately that the worst thing this country could do is have a failed state in Iraq, because it's part of the war on terror. The war doesn't stop the day we leave Iraq, if it fails, it gets bigger and wider, that the Shia south becomes a puppet regime for Iran—they're the biggest winner of a failed state—that the Turks are not going to sit on the sidelines and watch Iraq degenerate into chaos and allow an independent Kurdistan. That the Sunnis are going to be slaughtered. Do you think it's bad in Baghdad now? We leave—I talked to a citizens group on my last trip made up of Sunni, Shia and Kurds living in Baghdad. The one thing that united them was, "Please don't leave. If you leave here, there's going to be a bloodbath." There are four million Sunnis; there are two million Shias in Baghdad. If this thing fails, they're going to be slaughtered, they're going to be pushed into Anbar Province. Sunni Arab states are not going to sit on the sideline. Plan for the worst. Reinforce Iraq politically, economically and militarily because this is our last best chance, and think about the consequences, the future presidents, future commanders. We're living for the political moment. All the polls you put up is what everybody's focused on. I'm not focused on the polling for the moment. I'm focused on what happens to Iraq if it fails, long-term national security interests.

MR. RUSSERT: But there is a contrary view, and some express it this way:

We've been there for four years, the Iraqis have not taken control of their own destiny.

Our own National Intelligence Estimate said this: "Iraqi society's growing polarization, the persistent weakness of the security forces and the state in general, and all sides' ready recourse to violence are collectively driving an increase in communal and insurgent violence and political extremism." That our presence in effect is making things worse, and that if we got out then the Iraqis would have to take control of their own destiny.

SEN. GRAHAM: Here's what I believe. We've been there four years, and, within that four-year period, we've gone from a dictatorship, brutal, and we didn't realize how much Saddam Hussein raped his country economically, politically, how much he destroyed the capacity of this country to govern itself. The police under Saddam Hussein were protecting the dictator. Four years later we're trying to get police to protect the people. The rule of law that we're trying to create now is for all Iraqis, not just for the dictator. It took us from 1776 to 1789 to write our Constitution. The Maliki government is less than a year old. Yes, they need to do more. Why don't we solve Social Security and immigration? Because special interest groups give us a hard time. Can you imagine being an Iraqi politician, Tim, where the opponents of your plan don't just come after you politically and run commercials, they try to kill your family. We will not have the rule of law as long as you assassinate judges. We need reinforcements politically, economically and militarily. Forty percent unemployment in Baghdad.

Mistakes, we have made plenty. It has made this war more difficult. It has cost us more in blood and treasure. We make mistake in every war. The biggest mistake is yet to come, and I'm not going to sit on the sidelines and be silent about it. We're not going to allow the Congress to become the commander in chief. We're not going to send a signal to the terrorists that, if you do the five things in these resolution, you win. The biggest mistake would be leaving Iraq as a failed state. There are some early signs of success. General Petraeus is a general I have confidence in. I love my colleagues in the House and the Senate on both sides of the aisle, but I don't have confidence in them being generals. I have confidence...

MR. RUSSERT: How much time do you give General Petraeus?

SEN. GRAHAM: Whatever resources he needs and whatever time he needs, he's going to get. How much time did we have to win World War II? Did we ever think about just fighting the Germans and not engaging the Japanese? This to me is World War III. This is a central battlefront in a global struggle against terrorism. Moderates are fighting extremists in Lebanon, they're fighting extremists in Palestine, they're fighting extremists in Afghanistan, they're fighting extremists in Iraq. It is my belief that our long-term national security interest is to stand with moderates, as imperfect as they are, wherever we can find them and say no to the extremists.

MR. RUSSERT: But Iraq is Sunni fighting Shiites.

SEN. GRAHAM: Iraq...

MR. RUSSERT: So who's the extremists?

SEN. GRAHAM: Iraq is Sunnis and Shias wanting to live together under the rule of law and democracy and elements of Sunnis and Shias that want to destabilize the country. I have talked to military members who've been there. I've been there five times. I have met people on my first trip who are now dead. There are plenty of Iraqis who want to live together in peace and want the same thing for their family you want for yours. But the moderates are being shut out by the extremists. Small in number in terms of the overall population, but a desire to win at any and all cost. Do we have the desire to win? Do we have the desire to stand beside imperfect moderates, who I think are the future of the Mideast? Are we going to let car bombs and extremists run us out of Iraq? And where do you go? Where do you deploy to if you lose in Iraq? Because if al-Qaeda tastes the blood of Americans leaving and they can say with certainty they broke our will and ran us out of Iraq, and we go to Kuwait, they come wherever we go. The Gulf states are next. If we lose in Iraq, the moderate Gulf states are next. People like King Abdullah in Jordan, they're on the hit list. We cannot allow Iraq to fail, because if you fail in Iraq, every moderate voice in the Mideast has a death sentence on their head.

MR. RUSSERT: It sounds like the domino theory that we heard in Vietnam.

SEN. GRAHAM: It's not a domino theory, it's their own words. It's not me saying what they're going to do, it's them saying what they're going to do. And I believe them. I believe the president of Iran, if he had a nuclear weapon, would attack Israel. I don't believe in sitting down with him and talking about world problems until he acknowledges the Holocaust exists. This is 2007. The president of Iran, sitting on a sea of oil, has openly said in the United Nations, "My goal is to wipe Israel off the state—the face of the earth," and their nuclear weapons program is not about peaceful power, it's about a nuclear weapons...

MR. RUSSERT: Do you think the Iraqi government is closer to Iran than they are the United States?

SEN. GRAHAM: I think the Iraqi government is a lot closer to Iran, because they're their neighbors. The Iraqi government...

MR. RUSSERT: Well, ideologically.

SEN. GRAHAM: No. I—here's what I—Sadr represents a Shia view. Maliki and others represent the—what's best for Shias? Is it to have the country partitioned, and Iran become stronger, where other—every Sunni Arab state would be threatened? No. What's best for the Shias, according to Maliki and others, is to be the dominant political force in a democracy. What's best for the Sunnis in Iraq? To be run out of the country? No. To have part of the oil. The oil revenue sharing deal is on the verge of being successful. It could change everything. What's best for the Kurds in the north? To live in a confederation where your, your children can be prosperous and you never have to worry about Turkey invading you. It's in all of their interests to live together in a loose confederation under the rule of law and democracy. I believe that.

MR. RUSSERT: Before you go, you are a very strong supporter of the John McCain for president campaign.

SEN. GRAHAM: Yeah.

MR. RUSSERT: Rudy Giuliani has pulled significantly ahead in all the polls...

SEN. GRAHAM: Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT: ...we have seen over the last few months. Why is that?

SEN. GRAHAM: I think people admire Rudy because he was the American mayor—America's mayor during 9/11. He's truly an American hero. And he has a lot to offer to the Republican Party. But comparison shopping hasn't started. This is early in the game, and we're talking about straw polls of, you know, 1,000 people at, at the most. We're going to have a comparison shopping going on in the Republican—here's what Republicans got to do. Why did we lose in 2006? We need to nominate someone that can get our party right with the American people and get us back to fiscal conservatism. We need to put somebody who can stand up to the Clinton machine, if she's elected. We need somebody to be the commander in chief without doubt. Rudy Giuliani is electable in general election. Can he get through the primary because he's so different on the core social issues? I don't know, that's his problem. Can John McCain get through the primary? He's made people mad in the past. Can Mitt Romney prove to people that this is what I believe today, and this is why, and I can be commander in chief? We've got a lot of talented people in our primary. But if we don't get back to the basics of being a Republican on the fiscal side, and elect someone that can stand up to, to the test of being commander in chief, we will not do well in ‘08. But we have good candidates, and our Democratic friends have an array of very good candidates. It's going to be an exciting election.

MR. RUSSERT: Lindsey Graham, we thank you for joining us.

SEN. GRAHAM: Thank you.

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