CNN "The Lead with Jake Tapper" - Transcript: Interview with Dick Durbin

Interview

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Let's bring in Democratic Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois. He's the Senate Majority Whip, and he's the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee that just released this report.

Senator, thanks for joining us.

I'll get to your report in a moment. But I want to get your reaction to this breaking news from "The Washington Post," that former President Trump is telling his aides to not comply with the House's special committee investigating the January 6 insurrection, which has subpoenaed those four aides. And clearly this shouldn't surprise you, and I'm sure it doesn't. Do you think this is grounds, however, for charges against Trump and these aides of obstruction of Congress?

DURBIN: Let's take it one step at a time. I don't think Mr. Trump's aides are ever going to ask me for advice. But I would suggest modestly follow the law instead of the ravings of this former president. He is -- doesn't have the power to pardon you anymore. And probably I hope never will, again. And be careful, follow the law, even if the president is begging you to stay away because of the evidence that you might present.

TAPPER: What about holding them in contempt of Congress or holding former President Trump?

DURBIN: I'm not going to jump ahead of that script here. I think it's up to the select committee to issue the subpoenas and to react to witnesses and whether they comply with them. I'm not going to presume the outcome of that. I'll let them take care of that.

TAPPER: So let's turn to your report, which is rather stunning, it lays out some just very upsetting claims made by former Trump officials, including the acting Attorney General Jeffrey Rosen, but is anything in here that was done by President Trump or DOJ official Jeffrey Clark or anyone else, actually a violation of a law?

DURBIN: I can't tell you, Jake, whether it's a specific law that was violated, but I can tell you this for sure, we were a half step away from a constitutional crisis, the likes of which this nation has never seen. Think back on this, November 3 election, Trump disputes the results, refuses to accept, goes to 50 or 60 courts across the United States to make his case, flops and fails and every single one of them.

Next step, let's go to the Department of Justice. He's got a new Attorney General, Acting Attorney General Jeffrey Rosen calls him immediately. And as the record we presented shows on nine different occasions, either on the phone or calling him into the White House is badgering this man to buy into the big lie theory. Gives him these crazy theories of vote fraud generated by, none other than, Rudy Giuliani and others off the internet. And Rosen just basically says, no, they're not credible. I'm not going to do it.

[17:05:08]

Then comes the moment where Trump basically threatens to take away his title as Attorney General and put his buddy, Jeffrey Clark, in the position. I want to tell you at that moment, January 3rd or fourth of this year, it was a critical moment in our nation's history.

Thank goodness the president relented at the last second. His own counsel, Pat Cipollone, basically said it was a murder suicide pack that he was considering, and that there are going to be resignations all across the country if he did anything this radical, that the president was prepared to do this up until the very last minute.

TAPPER: So, as you know, Republicans on your committee put out a rebuttal to your report, their top list -- the top listed defense of President Trump is, quote, "President Trump listened to his advisors, including high-level Department of Justice officials and White House counsel and follow their recommendations," unquote. In other words, they're saying whatever they talked about doing, they didn't ultimately actually do. How do you respond?

DURBIN: If I could put that in simple terms, I believe what they're saying, well, it wasn't a coup was only an attempted coup. Well, that's the basic evidence before us. It was an attempt by the president of United States to persuade the Attorney General to do something unprecedented in American history, and without any support in the law. And he failed in that effort. But he sure as hell tried nine different occasions relentlessly badgering this acting Attorney General, thank goodness, he stood his ground.

TAPPER: I mean, I don't disagree with what you're saying. And the report is alarming, it adds new, shocking details to what we already knew. But I guess my question is, now what, what are you going to do to make sure it doesn't happen again?

This doesn't have to do with, for instance, the John Lewis Voting Rights Act, this is about corrupt officials abusing their power, and attempting or discussing disenfranchising millions of Americans. What are you going to do?

DURBIN: Well, some things have already been done. Merrick Garland, the new Attorney General, has established new standards for communication between the White House and the Department of Justice.

The last time we took a serious look at this, there was a president named Nixon in office, and we were in the middle of Watergate, but it's time to take a look at the standards of communications. Mark Meadows, every time some harebrained theory would cross his desk was calling the acting Attorney General saying, here's proof positive investigate this one. Well, those sorts of things go way beyond the bounds of what we thought were the establish standards.

The second thing is, to say that the Department of Justice has no business trying to change the outcome of an election in the United States, go after alleged illegality, for sure, but changing the outcome of the election, hold back. That's just way too far.

TAPPER: Right. But I guess one of the things that the Trump era, and especially the last few months of the Trump presidency revealed to the nation is how much of our system here in the United States depends on the honor system. And if there is a group of political leaders who have no honor, that's not going to work. So, what more can be done?

DURBIN: I'll tell you what happened here, Jeffrey Rosen was the Deputy Attorney General and I questioned whether he was ready for that job based on his background. Then came the time when he was actually the acting Attorney General for a long period of time, he stood his ground. And that really is at the core of a functioning democracy.

People are willing to stand up for principle, even under weathering political criticism. And how bad could it have been to get a telephone call after a telephone call from the president of United States?

TAPPER: Yes, but that's my point. I mean, the Liz Cheneys and Adam Kinzingers over there are the minority. Brad Raffensperger is about to lose his job possibly as Secretary of State in Georgia to Jody Hice, a congressman who was all in on the big lie. I mean, they're preparing to do it again.

DURBIN: History is going to be kind to these people, I'm certain of it. And when it's all over, that's really a measure of public service.

TAPPER: Wow.

DURBIN: Did you stand up for principle and value even if the risk of losing an election? I think many of these people will be treated very well by history.

TAPPER: Histories written by the winner. So I guess we'll see.

Judiciary Committee Chairman, Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

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