CNN "State of the Union with Jake Tapper" - Transcript: Interview with Dick Durbin

Interview

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BASH: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION.

"Saturday Night Live" is back with a lot of comedic fodder from Democrats, as the party struggles to come together and pass President Biden's agenda. Now the president and congressional Democrats have just one month to cut trillions of dollars from a bill stuffed with progressive priorities, all to secure the votes of at least two members of their party, Senators Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema, who won't sign on to the current plan.

Joining me now is Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin, who joins me from Illinois.

Thank you so much for joining me.

So, as you well know, top Democrats are floating $2.1 trillion as a potential compromise. But it would still require you to scale back significantly. You just heard Congresswoman Jayapal tell me that $1.5 trillion won't do, it's too small. That is where Senator Manchin is right now.

So how do you get from where Senator Manchin and Senator Sinema are, $1.5 trillion, to a deal with progressives?

SEN. RICHARD DURBIN (D-IL): Well, Dana, let me tell you at the outset I support the $3.5 trillion. I believe that the elements of it have been stated over and over again. They're good for this country, and they're needed by families and by our nation.

But I'm a realist too. I went through the Affordable Care Act. And you remember that debate 10 or 11 years ago, where we made concessions. And I think those concessions will lead to a different number. I just want to make sure that we come up with the right result, not the biggest number, but the most effective number to help families and this economy move forward in a responsible way.

BASH: What do you think that number may be?

DURBIN: I don't know.

I know that's the question of the day for every reporter on Capitol Hill. I can't tell you how many times I have been asked, what's your number?

I can tell you, as whip, working with Chuck Schumer, we sit down, we look at the priorities, we listen very carefully to every single member. Every vote counts when it comes to getting to this majority.

And concessions will be made. And we're certain of that. Thank goodness we have two other players who are really committed to this with the president arriving in the House last week. That was historic. It shows he wasn't going to stand on the sidelines and issue tweets. He rolled up his sleeves and walked down -- walked to Capitol Hill -- traveled to Capitol Hill.

BASH: So...

DURBIN: And Nancy Pelosi, I mean, never underestimate Nancy Pelosi, because I saw her deliver the Affordable Care Act. I know the power she has when she gets to work.

[09:20:01]

BASH: So, let's talk about the substance and the policies that you're describing.

And I'm going to put on the screen, just so our viewers can see it -- and we talked about it with Congresswoman Jayapal -- but everything from universal pre-K, to child care, to community college tuition- free, all the way to adding benefits for Medicare and climate provisions.

So do you think Democrats should eliminate any of these specifically, just kind of excise them, or scale -- keep them all in and scale back all of them, maybe do it through means testing or shorter timelines?

DURBIN: There's the question.

And it's one that we're going to face in next four weeks, because October 31 is our new target date, certainly to get the debt ceiling done long before that, but also when it comes to this issue, reconciliation and the infrastructure bill, to have that as our target.

And we have to ask that very fundamental question. Should we do everything to a limited degree, or should we really invest ourselves in the most important things and try to make that decision? It's a hard one.

BASH: What do you think?

DURBIN: As I said, I support the entire agenda.

BASH: Yes.

As somebody who supports the $3.5 trillion, the full thing, what do you think should be done?

DURBIN: I think the American people are looking for us to come up with effective ways to help them in their daily lives, working families, for example.

We want to get more people back to work and applying for jobs. Well, I can tell you that child care is essential to that. The reason that women are holding back is, the schools are not open fully, and there's uncertainty about the pandemic and there's uncertainty about the availability of child care.

So, we want a work force that's responsive and building the economy. We have got to give mothers and fathers the confidence that where they're leaving their children is safe.

BASH: So you're saying child care should stay in there.

Anything that you think could be delayed for another package?

DURBIN: Well, there are some -- I'm not going to go through a list of them. But there are some that can be, I guess, scheduled in a different way as to when they go into effect.

BASH: Can you give me an example?

DURBIN: No, I'm not going to, because that kind of argues against my case, I do support the entire agenda. But I'm listening to Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin, as Chuck Schumer

is, every single day and deciding, what will it take to bring them across the finish line?

BASH: OK.

DURBIN: We absolutely need them.

BASH: Senator Joe Manchin said this week that this reconciliation bill is dead on arrival if it does not include the Hyde Amendment, which bans federal dollars for most abortions.

As you know, President Biden changed his position on this during the campaign to oppose the Hyde Amendment, which means he's OK using federal dollars for abortions. You just heard Congresswoman Jayapal say that that's a nonstarter, she will not vote for a bill with the Hyde Amendment in it.

So what's going to happen?

DURBIN: Dana, I can't tell you how many times in my senatorial career we have seen major pieces of legislation founder on this issue.

So I don't want to say anything now to jeopardize the negotiation. But I hope that will keep in perspective that what we're trying to do is going to have a positive impact on families and children. And we should move toward that goal together. We have got to find ways to deal with this issue honestly.

But I hope it is not the decisive issue when it comes to the future of this package.

BASH: So, you're not just collecting votes. You are a vote.

Would you, Senator Dick Durbin, vote for legislation with the Hyde Amendment in it?

DURBIN: Well, I will tell you, I have voted for both in the past, because I have to measure it against the value of the package itself.

Build Back Better is the future for many working families. It gives them a chance to finally break away from the inequality in our economy and to have some optimism about the future. So I don't want to let the entire package break down over that issue.

BASH: OK. I take that as a yes.

Let's move on to Senator Kyrsten Sinema. I'm sure you have seen she released a scathing statement yesterday. She said: "Democratic leaders" -- and you're obviously one of them -- "have made conflicting promises that could not all be kept," and that canceling the infrastructure vote further erodes that trust.

The Republicans and Democrats who negotiated this infrastructure deal took the president at his word a couple of months ago when he explicitly told them that these bills are not linked. So, did the president go back on that promise?

DURBIN: No, I don't believe he did.

I think what we're witnessing is a strongly felt belief by Kyrsten Sinema and others that this bipartisan infrastructure package, what passed the Senate with a good, strong vote, and it's needed in the future, and we got to move with it.

At the same time, it's a fact that it's linked in time with the reconciliation package. And we need to deal with both of them together. I just hope that we will all take pause for a moment, as the president suggested, and look at the agenda ahead of us. We can do both of these. We should do both of these things.

And the sooner we do them together, it'll be good for this American economy.

[09:25:01]

BASH: Let's turn to another crisis on Capitol Hill, and that's the debt limit.

The government will no longer be able to pay its bills on October 18. Republicans say they're not going to help you at all and you're going to need to raise the debt limit via what's known as reconciliation, so just with Democratic votes.

But Leader Schumer and House Speaker Pelosi say they're not going to do that. So, are you unequivocally ruling out raising the debt ceiling with only Democratic votes through reconciliation?

DURBIN: The Republican leader in the Senate, Mitch McConnell, is playing games with a loaded weapon here.

He has demanded that the filibuster be applied to the debt ceiling. It may be the first time in history that that's happened. And we have been warned by not only the Treasury secretary, but by all of the financiers across America, this would be deadly to our economy. It would cost us six million jobs.

Why? What Schumer has said to McConnell is, if you're not going to lead, if you're not going to follow, then get the hell out of the way. Let the Democrats accept the political responsibility of extending the debt limit. And McConnell says, no, I want to let -- play this game out.

Well, he's doing it at the expense of this economy. We're going to get this done. And we're going to do it in a responsible way and face this as soon as we return next week.

BASH: So, yes or no, can you guarantee that the United States of America will not default on its debt on October 18?

DURBIN: Well, apparently, if Senator McConnell has his way, we will not do that. And that would be a disaster, a financial disaster, for this country. BASH: But you guys are in charge? Will you make sure it doesn't

happen?

DURBIN: Dana, I want to just add quickly, you're a student of the game. To say the Democrats are in charge of the Senate is to ignore it's a 50/50 Senate and we need 60 votes if McConnell insists on a filibuster on the debt ceiling.

I think he will come to his senses. I hope he will, if he will listen to the people back home and around this nation, who warn him of the dire consequences of this strategy.

BASH: OK, but this is a man who held up Merrick Garland's nomination for many, many months.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: And that was unprecedented. He has been known to say something and stick with it, despite the pressure that is on him.

So I'm guessing you understand him -- you're a student of Mitch McConnell as much as anybody -- that that's not going to happen, and that the reality is that Democrats are probably going to have to figure this out on their own. Fair?

DURBIN: Well, as I said earlier, Schumer has said to him, you don't want your fingerprints on the debt ceiling, even though you voted for all the spending bills that have created this debt ceiling extension, well, then step out of the way. Let us do it by majority vote, by a Democratic vote. We will accept that responsibility.

The future of our economy is at stake here. And if he thinks he's going to score political points by defaulting on America's debt for the first time in history, Senator McConnell is wrong.

BASH: Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin joining me from Illinois this morning, I really appreciate it.

DURBIN: Thanks, Dana.

BASH: Thank you.

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