CNN "State of the Union with Jake Tapper" - Transcript: Interview with Bill Cassidy

Interview

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BASH: All this as the Senate inches closer to passing the $1.2 trillion bipartisan infrastructure deal.

The bill cleared a key procedural hurdle yesterday, but its dash across the finish line was stalled by -- no surprise -- a partisan stalemate. Senators are confident, though, that the deal will pass. When? Well, that remains a little bit murky.

Joining us now is one of the Republican senators behind the deal, Senator Bill Cassidy of Louisiana.

Thank you so much for joining me, Senator.

I want to talk about infrastructure in a moment, but I want to start by discussing the pandemic, which is really ravaging the country, and especially your state of Louisiana. It's in dire crisis, a record number of hospitalizations. ICUs are running out of beds.

You are also a physician. So, when you see this, what goes through your mind?

SEN. BILL CASSIDY (R-LA): Well, we can stop it.

We have it within our power to stop it. Each person that is vaccinated now protects not only herself or himself, but those around them, because no longer is she as likely to pass the -- pass the infection to others.

If we don't want this, we have it within our control. All we need to do is to get vaccinated.

BASH: Your state's governor, John Bel Edwards, issued a new mask mandate, put it into effect this week. Was that the right move?

CASSIDY: Well, I'm now going to speak as a doctor.

If you have a large percentage of your population which is not vaccinated, and your infection rate is going up, you have got one or two choices. If you're inside, either you're vaccinated or you have to wear a mask. Otherwise, you're at too great a risk to further spread infection, to further pack those emergency rooms, to further prevent people who have terrible accidents from getting cared for because the hospital is full of COVID. And there is a choice. On the other hand, if we don't want mask

mandates, get vaccinated, the infection rate goes down, and you don't have a mandate.

BASH: So, it sounds like you're saying that's a yes, given where things are.

CASSIDY: As a doctor, I will tell you, you have got two choices to stop that infection.

BASH: OK.

CASSIDY: Either get vaccinated or wear a mask.

BASH: Some governors, like Ron DeSantis in Florida, Greg Abbott in Texas, they're blocking local officials from imposing restrictions like mask mandates. The virus is surging to record highs in those states, including yours.

So, as you said, you are a doctor. You are an elected official. Shouldn't local officials be allowed to make decisions like mask mandates if they believe that's best for their local community?

CASSIDY: I'm a conservative. I think you govern best when you govern closest to the people being governed.

And if a local community is having a -- their ICU is full, and the people at the local schools see that they have got to make sure they stay open, because, otherwise, children miss out for another year of school, and they put in policy, then the local officials should be listened to. That is a conservative principle.

BASH: So you disagree with Governor DeSantis?

CASSIDY: I do disagree with Governor DeSantis.

The local officials should have control here. I don't want top down from Washington, D.C. I don't want to top down from a governor's office, sometimes, yes, OK, national defense and such like that.

[09:05:09]

But when it comes to local conditions, if my hospital is full, and my vaccination rate is low, and infection rate is going crazy, we should allow local officials to make those decisions best for their community.

BASH: Is he playing politics with this?

CASSIDY: I don't know if he's playing politics. I try not to guess other people's motives.

I will say, politicians should not kind of carte blanche accept what the public health doctor says, but they shouldn't by -- they shouldn't just gratuitously ignore it either. There has to be a balance here. And whenever politicians mess with public health, usually, it doesn't work out well for public health, and, ultimately, it doesn't work out for the politician, because public health suffers. And the American people want public health.

BASH: So, let's turn to infrastructure, the -- which is something that you helped to craft.

The Senate is moving pretty slowly, but getting there slowly. So, first of all, when do you think it's going to pass? And how many Republicans will vote yes?

CASSIDY: So, we have had about 17 or 18 who have indicated that they're going to vote yes. And, probably, it's going to pass -- we will have a vote tonight 7:30, and then another vote, if you just look at the clock playing out, sometime on Tuesday.

So, it could go quicker, but it's going. And that's the good thing. It's going.

BASH: You were in regular communications with President Biden as you got this deal done. What were those conversations like? And do you think this could have happened without that kind of dialogue?

CASSIDY: No, the White House engaged, and that's a good thing, because, obviously, the negotiations were between the Democratic White House, the Democratic senators and the Republican senators, with a healthy mix of my colleagues from the House the Problem Solvers Caucus, Josh Gottheimer and Brian Fitzpatrick, and the folks they work with.

But, obviously, at some point, they signaled they wanted it to happen. And, by the way, because they wanted it to happen, there's going to be over a trillion dollars spent on roads and bridges and flood protection and waterways and flood mitigation, coastal restoration -- I could go down the list -- and create hundreds of thousands of jobs. So I'm glad they engaged.

BASH: And what about your personal interactions with President Biden?

CASSIDY: Yes.

So, at some point, the president called me and he said: "Listen, everything I have seen so far does not have a section resiliency or a section on energy. And I know that you have been working with Gottheimer and Fitzpatrick to come up with such a thing. Can you engage?"

At that point, we merged a couple of independent efforts. And so now we have $16 billion to $17 billion going to the Army Corps of Engineers for coastal restoration, and 3.5 or 2.5 for FEMA for flood mitigation.

BASH: Because it was the kind of negotiation that historically was done to get things done...

CASSIDY: Yes.

BASH: ... which we haven't seen in a long time in Washington.

CASSIDY: Well, we have seen it. We have seen it.

For example, we -- keep in mind, Republicans, when we controlled the Senate, we passed four or five relief packages for COVID relief at the end of the term...

BASH: That's true.

CASSIDY: ... wide bipartisan.

BASH: That's true.

I want to ask you, though, specifically about this, because some of your fellow Senate Republicans say they're going to oppose this. And they're pointing to a Congressional Budget Office estimate that it's $250 billion -- that it adds to the deficit that much.

Here's what some of your GOP colleagues have said. Chuck Grassley said it was disappointing. John Cornyn called it a real problem. Mike Braun called it the swamp's debt bomb.

What do you know that they don't?

CASSIDY: We absolutely said, this is how it was going to be.

A half of what we proposed is going to be scored by CBO as paid for. We were up front about that. And a half, because of their rules, they won't.

Now, the half that we won't are things that a reasonable person would say, hmm, yes, it's a pay-for. For example, $53 billion Congress has already appropriated for federal unemployment supplemental payments are not being used for that.

So, we are repurposing that, just as we told folks we were going to repurpose, repurposing for the sake of paying for this. CBO doesn't give us credit, but that is $53 billion that we're repurposing that a reasonable person would say, yes, that pays for it.

BASH: Do you think, just more broadly, it's a bit rich that, under President Trump, the national debt climbed almost $8 trillion, and now some of your colleagues are worried about the debt again?

CASSIDY: Well, on the other hand, first -- the first part of your thing, let's face it, a lot of that spending was in response to COVID, OK?

So, we understood, when COVID broke, we had to put out Payroll Protection Plan.

BASH: That's true, but a lot of it happened before COVID.

CASSIDY: But, secondly, I will point out that President Trump proposed a $1.5 trillion package, which most Republicans were all for, and only 5 percent of it was paid for. We have $550 billion of new spending, of which we can reasonably say

is paid for, but certainly one-half by CBO score. And now folks are saying, oh, can't vote for that.

(LAUGHTER)

CASSIDY: OK, well, that's OK.

But, on the other hand, we're creating jobs. We're creating bridges. We're protecting people from flooding. Hopefully, they change their mind.

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BASH: So, many in your party say that they're opposed to this on its substance, but also because that it's really just cover, giving cover to Democrats, so that they can pass their multitrillion-dollar reconciliation bill.

I know you say they're separate, but a lot of Democrats, including House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, don't necessarily see it that way. Are they playing you here?

CASSIDY: The fact that Pelosi says she has to link them tells you she doesn't have the votes for the $3.5 trillion package.

One of my colleagues said, hey -- a Democratic colleague said, infrastructure is the dessert. The $3.5 trillion, spend a lot of money and tax a lot of money, is spinach. I have eaten my dessert, and now I'm supposed to eat my spinach? I don't think so.

The other thing, the Problem Solvers Caucus, a coalition of 28 Republicans, 28 Democrats, headed by Gottheimer and Fitzpatrick, have come out in favor of this. She doesn't need a radical left wing. She can pass the infrastructure package with just that committed group of American congress men and women who want to see our country get better to have the $110 billion for the roads and bridges and highways, et cetera, and the new jobs.

They can pass the infrastructure package without having the radical left. And that, I think, opens a pathway.

BASH: Before I let you go, I want to ask about the investigation that Senator Dick Durbin of Judiciary, the Judiciary chairman, who's coming on after you, is doing into the way that former President Trump tried to overturn the election.

A former top Justice Department official described Trump's direct instructions to push false election fraud claims. I know you have condemned the lies about the election. But what does it tell you about the lengths that the former president was willing to go to overturn the election?

CASSIDY: Excuse me.

First, what you just described is -- one, if it happened, it's wrong. Let's say that.

Secondly, though, as you describe it -- and I read the "New York Times" article -- an unnamed official in a closed-door session reportedly said this. So, it still kind of meets the definition of hearsay at this point. If it happened, it's wrong.

On the other hand, I'd like some sort of validation beyond that which I just described.

BASH: OK.

Senator Bill Cassidy, thank you so much for joining me. Appreciate it.

CASSIDY: Thank you, Dana.

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