MSNBC "All In With Chris Hayes" - Transcript: Interview with Chris Murphy

Interview

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SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): Well, the President has expressed support for a ceasefire. If you look at the readout of the calls that the administration has been engaged in over the last 48 hours, they are very clearly working the phones hard. And my understanding is that that they are pursuing this policy that the President has enunciated that we are trying to get a ceasefire.

HAYES: Oh, come on. But that not -- well, that`s -- that is different, you and I both know, than diplomatically pressuring. It just is. I mean, I`ve read the readouts. I`ve read the readouts of the DOD and Secretary Austin. I`ve read the thanks given to him by the foreign minister of Israel to Blinken. Basically, they feel like the American government has given them room to do what they`re going to do and it is not pressuring them to stop.

MURPHY: Yes, listen. I mean, I don`t -- I don`t claim to know the details of the conversations happening between the Biden administration and the government. I doubt that there`s a policy being enunciated by Joe Biden that is not being effectuated by his team. But let`s also be honest here. The Israelis in the past have not shown much of a willingness to listen to advice and pressure from the United States when they have made past incursions in Gaza.

Right now, it benefits Benjamin Netanyahu`s politics to continue this assault, unfortunately. It also benefits Hamas` politics to continue to lob rockets into Israel. And so, notwithstanding the pressure that we may be putting on both sides, the forces inside both of those political infrastructures, unfortunately, push against compromise, push both sides away from a ceasefire.

HAYES: You know, there`s been these images I`ve seen of the Iron Dome System, right. This missile defense system, the U.S. partly funded that has been intercepting Hamas rockets into Israel. And those rockets are being fired as a Palestinian human rights lawyer said on the show last night, indiscriminately on civilians are war crime, by definition.

And the Iron Dome has worked quite well. Today, some got through. I think, two Thai nationals and Israeli died as a result. But I look at those images and I think, well, good. That`s good. I`m glad those rockets are being intercepted. And also, there`s some part of me that`s like, can we get an Iron Dome for Gaza? Can the American taxpayer foot the bill to protect innocent children in Gaza where there`s two million people in one of the most densely populated parts of the world so that they don`t have death rained down upon them?

MURPHY: Yet, not so long as Hamas is running Gaza. Hamas is an organization that seeks the eradication of Israel and organizes the armed rebellion against it. And I will just say clearly that, you know, so long as Hamas is in charge, there`s going to be absolutely no security partnership between the United States and Gaza.

But your point here is that the United States should have a policy of preventing civilian death on both sides of that line. Which is why, early on, I have been pressing the administration to engage on a ceasefire, and it`s also why I think we`re going to have to have a discussion about what forms of leverage the United States does have to try to convince the Israeli government to get back on a path to a two-state solution, because without a viable path to a Palestinian state, then this crisis is just going to continue to repeat itself.

And that`s the conversation that is really important to have, simultaneous to our discussions about how do we get to a ceasefire.

HAYES: You know, you wrote a book about violence. It`s specifically in the context of U.S. gun violence and interpersonal violence. The U.S. has a very high level of violence. We`ve seen a huge spike in violence in the last year, really worrying numbers, huge spikes and gun violence in the top 25 cities, 30 percent, 35 percent, 40 percent.

You know, there`s some similarities in the cycles of violence anywhere, right, violence, retribution, a lack of some third party entity that can interrupt that or bring justice. What did you learn from writing that book when you survey the violence happening abroad?

MURPHY: Well, I think two things. First, as I argue in the book, you know, Americans have a biological predilection towards violence. And in particular, we have a habit of organizing ourselves in groups and tribes, and then using violence as a way to protect ourselves against the other. And it is our ability to integrate those tribes that protects ourselves against those violent instincts.

Obviously, in Israel and Gaza, they have not done an adequate job of integration. And so, there is a fear built up of the other. But second, access to weapons, access to easier means of violence leads to higher levels of violence. And so, that`s why it is worthwhile for the United States to continue to have a discussion about why we continue to load up the entirety of the Middle East, tribes on different sides of different conflicts with a higher caliber and higher class weapons. That is a part of the story of violence from the very beginning of human history.

HAYES: Yes, it`s a -- it`s a very good point and obviously plays domestically as well where we have the highest per capita gun ownership rate in the world by a mile. And we see that every day in terms of how it manifests here. Senator Chris Murphy, that book is called The Violence Inside Us. It is now out in paperback. Thanks so much for making time tonight, Senator. I appreciate it.

MURPHY: Thanks a lot, Chris.

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