CNN "Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees" - Transcript: Interview with Jim Himes

Interview

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BERMAN: No. And that too is a much lower number than other recent Presidents. Kaitlan Collins, chief White House correspondent. Great to see you. Thanks so much.

Joining us now Connecticut Democratic Congressman Jim Himes, who played a central role in the ex-President's first impeachment. Congressman Himes, nice to see you. I want your reaction to this announcement of the beginning of the impeachment trial starting February 8th. What do you think?

REP. JIM HIMES (D-CT): Well, I think it's the best play against a pretty tough hand here. Right? I mean, nobody -- nobody wants an impeachment at the start of a new administration where you're hoping to turn over a new leaf, you're hoping that maybe you don't have to talk about the old President, but the attack that was committed, you know, and the memories are still quite vivid in my own mind.

The attack that was committed at the urging of the President was so serious that, you know, we just -- we can't as you said, we can't slide the whole thing down the memory hole. We need to make sure that people are held accountable. We need to make sure that the American people know exactly what happened and how the President -- well, ex- President contributed to that.

BERMAN: So the new timeline does give the Senate more time to confirm some of the President's nominees. But it might also give Republican senators more time, those who are sitting on the fence to be swayed not to convict. Is that a concern of yours?

HIMES: Well, John, I'm in the camp of believing that there is very little probability that you're going to get, I guess it's 16 Republican senators to convict. I watched very closely the last impeachment and well, you got one, and I could imagine getting six, I could imagine maybe getting seven.

But you have to remember that behind this, we like to call that in court, you know, the senate court and will he be convicted, the senators are jurors, each and every one of those Republican senators is contemplating the fact that it's a minority of their constituents, but a minority of their constituents are probably okay with what happened in the Capitol.

The Republicans have created this Frankenstein monster. And by the way, you ran a clip of Kevin McCarthy, you ought to run the clip of Kevin McCarthy looking into the camera and saying this election was stolen. And so Republican after Republican after Republican contributed to this fact that there are millions of Americans out there who believe that the election was stolen and they believe it because Donald Trump and congressional Republicans told them that.

So now they've got this Frankenstein monster that is raging in the village and they don't know what to do, but I'm guessing that most of them are not going to choose to put their bodies in front of that monster and take the risks associated politically speaking with doing the right thing.

[20:10:10]

BERMAN: So the former President is off Twitter, he's off Facebook. And that absence is remarkable and notable. But what kind of oxygen does he still take up in Washington? And how formidable is his base?

HIMES: Well, I'm gratified to see that that hardcore MAGA base and that runs from QAnon to the whole cast of characters that you saw assault the Capitol is in disarray. It's pointing fingers.

They were promised that there was some magical way in which Joe Biden would not become President, and lo and behold, reality happened. And it's hard for people who are living in an alternative universe with alternative facts to be, you know, have their nose rubbed in reality.

So I do think that there's disarray. I think there's finger pointing. I think -- I know, ex-President Trump has approval ratings that are about half of what the current President has.

So you know, this is a group of dead-enders getting smaller, but still very, very important to the Republican primary process. And there are a lot of senators and Members of Congress who would love to do the right thing, but they just know what sort of political massacre could occur if they do the right thing and stand up and speak the truth about what President Trump did.

BERMAN: Congressman Himes, stick around, because I want to bring in former Nixon White House counsel and CNN contributor, John Dean, into this conversation. And, John, the claims from supporters of the former President that a Senate trial is unconstitutional now that he is a private citizen, they state it as a fact. But it's not a fact. What's the truth here?

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: It's a debatable point, but not going to be resolved in favor of the people who claim there's no right to have this trial. In fact, 150 scholars from both the right and the left, including Federal Society scholars weighed in and they said there is clear precedent, there's historical precedent to have this trial, and even the fact that he's out of office doesn't make any difference.

He can't just do an impeachable offense at the end of his term, sadly depart and not be held responsible.

BERMAN: Yes, I mean, it is simply not determined fact that it is unconstitutional. There is some precedent to let this type of thing happen. Nevertheless, Congressman Himes, is it the type of thing that will give Republicans in the Senate an out? For those looking for a way out, they don't have to judge the President's action, they can say, oh, I'm told by some it's not constitutional.

HIMES: Oh, sure. Sure. Look, you know, the fig leaves don't need to be particularly compelling for these folks to find reasons. We saw it in the last impeachment where we actually saw Republican senators saying, yes, it was terrible behavior, that phone call with Ukraine, but I'm not sure it meets my standard of impeachability, or, you know, the fig leaves don't have to be particularly beautifully crafted in an institution where principle is not high on people's lists of things they care about.

So look, it's going to be that. A lot of Republicans are going to hide behind the fact that the House acted very quickly, a lot of Republicans are going to hide behind the fact that I don't think anybody wants to see this trial dragged out for weeks and weeks and weeks, it's likely to go in days.

So a lot of them are just going to point to that and say, hey, it was just a couple of days. Now, don't forget, by the way that in the last impeachment, they voted against witnesses. They voted against, you know, bringing evidence to the Senate, but they're going to say, oh, geez, the due process was not nearly enough for me to vote to convict.

BERMAN: So John, when you look at the former President's defense team, you say you see some parallels to President Nixon's team? How so?

DEAN: Well, the parallel is he has hired an attorney who really has very little Washington experience. My digging around in his background appears that Mr. Bowers spent about a year in Washington at the Department of Justice and a special assignment and that's it. He really doesn't know the ways of Washington.

He certainly knows South Carolina and Republican politics there, but he is playing on a different stage.

This is what happened with Nixon. He hired a Boston attorney who had no experience in Washington, no real feel for the way the Senate and House worked. And it cost Nixon. I think it's one of the reasons he was forced to resign because they really didn't prepare a good case.

I think that's the situation here. This two weeks they have to prepare a case is not very long when he has only been hired for a few days and he is a solo practitioner. He doesn't have a big firm behind him. I don't know who -- are there money or resources that are given be available. So I think the President is handicapped with his counsel at this point.

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BERMAN: So, Congressman Himes, I know you were part of the group trapped on the House floor on January 6th, and I mentioned at the top of the program, the plan to keep thousands of National Guard troops in D.C. over concerns of more unrest during the impeachment trial. How concerned are you and your colleagues about your own safety?

HIMES: Well, it was very gratifying to see all those National Guardsmen there for the Inauguration. That made a huge difference. If we'd had a, you know, 15 percent of that presence on January 6th, what happened would never have happened.

So I'm really glad that until this chapter is in the history books in its entirety, that we have that degree of security, you know, it may not be a situation where the President is going to urge thousands of people to march down Pennsylvania Avenue, but you never know when some, you know, group of Proud Boys or Boogaloo Boys or whatever they call themselves is going to decide to come down to the Capitol and raise hell, so I'm glad to see it.

But I'm also going to be so glad to see the back of this whole situation, you know, it just pains me beyond measure to see the Capitol looking like, you know, our embassy in Kabul. You know, I mean, this is the People's House and so the sooner we can get back to making it open and accessible is I think, going to make a lot of us very happy.

BERMAN: Congressman Himes, John Dean, thanks to both of you. Both of you, stay safe. Thank you for being with us.

HIMES: Thank you, John.

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