CNN "Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees" - Transcript: Interview with Chris Murphy

Interview

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COOPER: Shocking when it happened just three weeks ago, tomorrow, and

chances are it will be no less shocking when historians look back on this three decades from now, but it is still shocking to Mitch McConnell, and all the other Republican senators who had to flee the mob threatening to hang one of their own. That is the question tonight.

Joining us now, one of the Democratic jurors in the trial, 45 Republican senators voted today to not even have is Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. Thanks for being with us, Senator. That 45 Republican senators went on the record today saying they think trying a former President is unconstitutional. What signal does that send not just about this trial, but about accountability for future Presidents?

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): Well, first of all, it's plainly constitutional. In fact, the Senate in the past has tried a former Cabinet official after he had resigned office in order to try to avoid accountability, so there's precedent for this.

And there's a specific provision in the Constitution that is perspective, impeachment, not only remove someone from office, but disqualifies them from future office. That means there's a relevant consequence even to a former official. So I don't think there's a question as to whether this is constitutional or not.

But you talk about the signal it sends. Well, it sends a signal of impunity. This idea that we can't hold somebody accountable because it's divisive is completely foreign to the American rule of law.

Yes, for the person that we put in jail after they commit a crime, accountability, I guess, is divisive. The people that support them, and like them probably aren't too enamored by the fact that their loved one goes to jail.

But we still enforce the laws of this country, because there has to be consequence for violations of the rule of law and there has to be consequences when the President violates the law. And he did here, he incited a crowd to violence. He violated his Oath of Office and there's got to be a consequence for that or it sends a message to future Presidents that they can get away with it.

COOPER: How many of your Republican colleagues are frankly, just kind of latching on to this constitutionality argument that well, it's just unconstitutional as a way to avoid altogether having to, you know, be on record saying whether or not the President -- what the President did was actually impeachable?

MURPHY: Yes, I think it's a very convenient position for Senate Republicans to occupy. They can say it's an unconstitutional proceeding as a way to avoid talking about the President's conduct.

Listen, I think they are all faced with this reality that Donald Trump isn't going away and that he has developed such a cult of personality inside the Republican Party, that he is going to be the person who decides who wins Senate Republican primaries, at least for the next four years. And so they continue as they did for the last four years to, I think,

live in fear of what the President will say about them and that continues to dictate a lot of their decision making. There were five senators that stood up for the rule of law from what was right today, but many of those that voted to try to shut down this trial before it began are, you know, once again, just trying to curry favor with the former President.

COOPER: It's so interesting to me, though, because it clearly if they cared about the Republican Party, which is the party that they belong to, I mean, this actually was an opportunity to rid themselves of the looming figure of Donald Trump, you know, being down in Mar-a-Lago.

I mean, if he had been impeached, if he had been, if they -- you know, you wouldn't need as big a majority to prevent him from running for office again.

MURPHY: So long as Donald Trump is the head of the Republican Party, they are going to find themselves in the minority. They are going to lose races for the House and the Senate, especially after the insurrection attempt. But it's also important to note that the threat to the country is not over. Right? We still have 5,000 National Guard members surrounding the Capitol Complex. Why? Because there are still existing threats, present threats to the security of the Capitol.

And so, so long as Donald Trump is empowered by Senate Republicans, there is still the chance that he is going to incite another attempt at the Capitol or stir up similar trouble at the state legislative level or in a governor's election when things don't go his way. The threat is still very real to American democracy.

COOPER: And to this point, I want to play something that you said in the Senate floor speech in December.

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MURPHY: Republicans have decided -- not all Republicans, but far too many have decided that if democracy can't keep Trump in power, then democracy ceases to have any real purpose.

Because to Republicans who are supporting these continued efforts to invalidate the election, their loyalty is to Donald Trump, not to the nation or our system of government.

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[20:10:25]

COOPER: And they're still contorting themselves in their loyalty to the former President.

MURPHY: Yes, I gave that speech in early December before, you know anybody had marked January 6th on their calendar, because at that point, I saw what was coming down the pike, this idea that Trump supporters were willing to cast aside democracy, if that was the cost to keep their guy in power. And again, I worry that that is the direction the Republican Party is

going in. And maybe they weren't successful in stealing the presidential election. But what about two years from now, when a Republican candidate for Senate loses? Maybe state election officials do decide to overturn that vote, simply because democracy didn't end up with their favorite candidate winning.

When a party decides to make winning more important than the preservation of fair elections, that's when the whole democratic experiment starts to, you know, go down the toilet, and I think that that threat is still out there as well.

COOPER: So Rand Paul today said that the impeachment after today is, quote, "dead on arrival." Under what scenario -- is there any scenario -- I mean, it was always a long shot that Democrats would peel away 17 Republicans to vote to convict?

MURPHY: Today's vote is not a pure proxy vote for conviction. I think there are certainly senators who voted to sustain Senator Paul's constitutional objection, who now may end up voting to convict once the question is settled. But it certainly does look like it's probably going to be difficult to get to the 17 Republican votes that are necessary.

But just like was the case a year ago, that doesn't obviate the United States Senate of its responsibility to have a trial. And listen, once we put on evidence, right, those videotapes showing how the President incited the mob, once we show evidence of, you know, very clear plans, many of these rioters had to kill Mike Pence and Members of Congress, you know, maybe the process of putting on evidence does prompt a few more Republicans to vote to convict. I'm not giving up on that.

COOPER: Senator Chris Murphy. I appreciate your time. Thank you.

MURPHY: Thanks.

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