CNN Crossfire
SHOW: CNN CROSSFIRE 19:00
HEADLINE: Senators Respond to State of the Union
GUESTS: George Allen, Dick Durbin, Arianna Huffington, Fred Smith
BYLINE: Paul Begala, Tucker Carlson
HIGHLIGHT:
U.S. senators debate whether Bush's State of the Union effectively addressed the issues of Iraq and the economy.
BODY:
Joining us to discuss the president's State of the Union speech, beginning with Iraq, please welcome Democratic Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois, along with Republican Senator George Allan of Virginia.
CARLSON: Now there's Senator Daschle suggesting that maybe, after all, Saddam doesn't have weapons of mass destruction. He said that on the very day, literally the same day, that Hans Blix's report to the United Nations became public, which outlined in detail instances of Iraq possessing chemical weapons.
Why should we take the Democratic leadership seriously when they say things like that?
SEN. DICK DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: Because when it gets down to winning the support of a coalition of nations, whether it's the United Nations or other countries that share our values, they want to establish that we're doing this for just cause.
The president made his argument last night. It was a good argument. As a lawyer I know that's the opening statement in any trial. But a judge will admonish the jury, that's just the opening statement. Let's wait fort evidence.
And when it comes to the evidence, the president last night in the State of the Union address once again raised the specter of aluminum tubes. We've heard about these for months and now it's been totally discredited.
Initially they said this was a preparation for nuclear weapons. Then the inspectors came in and took a look at them and said no, you can't use these for nuclear weapons. These are rocketry or shell casing. It doesn't have anything to do with it.
Yet again last night the president used it.
What it comes down to is this: the president made the opening statement last night with his State of the Union. The proof, the evidence that's going to be presented by Secretary of State Colin Powell, will decide whether the world community of nations will stand behind us. I hope they do.
CARLSON: But you mentioned the world community of nations, the United Nations. Just for my own interest, can you name a single example in the 50 odd years it's been around that the United Nations has disarmed any tyrant ever without American prodding? Just one.
DURBIN: In more than 25 instances peacekeeping forces sent by the United Nations have established a peaceful situation. In terms of an invasionary force, I guess you could use...
CARLSON: Just disarmed a tyrant.
DURBIN: Well, let's use, for example, what happened in the Korean War. That was a U.N. police action, as an example.
But the point I'm trying to get to is this: is it better for the United States to go into this undertaking with a coalition of nations behind us or a coalition of nations against us?
BEGALA: Senator, let me ask you about this matter of the aluminum tubes. First off, earlier in the year, our president say the IAEA, the International Atomic Energy Agency, had a report that said Saddam Hussein would have a nuclear weapon in six months. The IAEA said, "With respect, Mr. President, that's false. There's no such report."
Then he told us that there were these aluminum tubes that were going to be used to make nuclear weapons. The U.N. inspectors said that's not the case. The British intelligence, our closest allies, say that's not the case and the American intelligence agencies say that is not the case.
Doesn't our president need to level with us instead of making things up?
ALLEN: What do you reckon they're using them for? Making aluminum baseball bats?
BEGALA: No, sir, they're actually for conventionalNo, they're for conventional weaponry. They're for conventional weapons and not nuclear weapons.
ALLEN: Right. And do you know that their rocketry and missiles far exceed what the United Nations allows them to have?
BEGALA: Yes, but that doesn't make them nuclear. Why did he say they were for making nuclear bombs when he knew, or should have known...
ALLEN: Well, they could be. They could have been.
BEGALA: So they would have to buy the wrong size tubes and then modify them.
ALLEN: If you want to ignore all the facts and when you use the legal terms...
BEGALA: Are the Brits ignoring the facts?
ALLEN: Look, some of these facts are stipulated that the president was talking about last night. They're not just from our intelligence. These are facts of and quantities of chemical or biological agents that, several years back, the United Nations said Iraq had and they have not been destroyed. There's no evidence of where they are.
Sure, can you go around there playing find the needle in the haystack, but that's not what this is about. He is supposed to show what's happened to him so that they can be destroyed.
Now, if you all can go around like Pollyanna, thinking Saddam Hussein is not a threat, that's fine. But I think the president has made a convincing case and it's not just evidence, again, from us. The United Nations has had these mandates on him. He has defied them year after year after year. So how long do y'all want to wait?
CARLSON: Senator DurbinSenator Durbin, apparently the president has made a convincing case. I want just want to quickly take look at a poll that we did here at CNN.
"Has Bush made a convincing case for U.S. action in Iraq?" Before the speech, we asked, 47. After the speech, 67. That's a big majority, 20 points in a night.
BEGALA: Among those who watched the speech, you should say.
CARLSON: Yes. Not all Americans.
DURBIN: When they analyze those who watched the speech, they're overwhelmingly Republican.
Let's go to the point, though.
CARLSON: Now, wait await a second.
DURBIN: No, they did.
CARLSON: I think the majority of people watching television last night watched the speech, I believe.
DURBIN: No, but it turned out is CNN polls showed over 40 percent were Republicans, somewhere in the range of 30 percent independents, a smaller percentage Democrats.
But here's the point I'll make, and I can see the president has the bully pulpit. That is his greatest night of the year. He has the attention of the United States. He has all of the news organizations watching this. And I've seen president after president hit home runs at that speech.
This president was very good, delivered it very effectively, and I'm sure swayed public opinion.
Now let's wait a few days and let's see what happens when Secretary Powell makes his presentation. And then let's ask the same question.
But here's what I think the president said last night. Regardless of what we believe, what he has said, we are prepared to invade Iraq, a land invasion of Iraq, with or without the United Nations. We are prepared to go forward with this war effort with or without further inspections.
ALLEN: A coalition of nations.
DURBIN: A coalition of the willing, whatever that means.
ALLEN: No. Coalition of nations were his exact words.
DURBIN: What we're getting to is this. We said to the United Nations on September 12 last year, "Put up or shut up."
They passed the resolution, which we wrote. They have the inspectors in the field and most people in this country say we should use war as a last option. A land invasion is dangerous.
BEGALA: For this segment, Senators Durbin and Allen, stay with us.
When we come back, we're shift our focus to the economy. We'llI will ask our guests if President Bush can cure the economic downturn that was caused by his tax cuts for the rich by passing more tax cuts for the rich.
And then later, why didn't the president say very much about corporate greed? We have a guest who's written a whole book on it. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
President Bush says the U.S. economy is, quote, "still kind of nudging along in spite of the setbacks."
President Bush's policies have kind of nudged about 2.7 million Americans out of their jobs and 1.4 million Americans out of their health insurance. I don't know how much more nudging like that we can take.
We are reviewing the State of the Union with Republican Senator George Allen of Virginia and Democratic Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois.
CARLSON: Senator Durbin, it seems that the Democratic Party was completely outflanked by the president last night.
HisThe centerpiece of the first half of the speech were two initiatives that should have come your party, I think. Billions in funding to eliminate or control the spread of AIDS in Africa. And then hydrogen fuel cell technology, alternative energy.
Your party really kind of dropped the ball on that, didn't it?
DURBIN: No, in fact, if you follow the Senate last week, it was my amendment for $180 million more for the global AIDS epidemic. It was the highest level of spending for this year that we're in currently in the history of the United States, introduced not just by a Democrat but with a Republican, Mike Dewine.
This is a bipartisan issue. And it should be. And I salute the president. He did the right thing in the global AIDS epidemic.
Let me say a word about the hydrogen cars, though. Hydrogen automobiles are a great concept eight or ten years from now, if we do it right. In the meantime, what are we going to do about fuel efficiencies for cars or vehicles in the United States today that are gas guzzlers and make us more dependent on foreign oil? You can ask Arianna Huffington about that in your next segment.
BEGALA: Thanks for the tip. I'll get right on that.
The first half of that speech...
ALLEN: I think the research and development initiative on hydrogen fuel cell vehicles is great. We need greater energy independence and we need to embrace technology.
BEGALA: It was many of the new spending initiatives the president called for the first half of the speech.
Let me show you some of these, Senator. Here's our president last night calling for new spending on everything in the world.
ALLEN: Right. Are you going to grouse about this?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: One-point-two billion dollars in research funding so that America can lead the world in developing clean, hydrogen-powered automobiles.
Four-hundred-fifty-million-dollar initiative to bring mentors to more than a million disadvantaged.
And $600 million program to help an additional 300,000 Americans receive treatment.
Fifteen billion dollars over the next five years, including nearly $10 billion in new money to turn the tide against AIDS.
Almost $6 million to quickly make available effective vaccines and treatment.
An additional $400 billion over the next decade to reform and strengthen Medicare.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Senator, when you add to that the whopper, $674 billion tax cut that he's also asked for, that comes out to $1,097,000,000. I can't even fit all the zeros on my chart here, doing my Tim Russert impression. How are you going to pay for it?
ALLEN: Well, the president said we needed fiscal discipline. And he'll present a budget, and it's going to be withinHe said spending should not increase any more than four percent. Some of these figures are not all...
BEGALA: He spent $18 billion a minute, Senator, last night. Over a trillion dollars.
ALLEN: Well, which ones do you want to cut out?
BEGALA: Well, let me ask you...
ALLEN: This will all be within the four percent increase in spending. There'll need to be fiscal discipline. Some of these numbers are not over one year, they're over several years. So you may add them all up and for one year, but I think that the investment in the research and development in hydrogen fueled vehicles is a good idea.
BEGALA: You're for all of this spending, right?
ALLEN: Well I think they're all good ideas. Now there may be other priorities that I may have, and that's part of the legislative process. All these ideas run through the gauntlet.
CARLSON: Now Senator Durbin, the president also got up yesterday and said that he wants the Congress to ban partial birth abortion and to ban human cloning. These are pretty basic requests that I think every American is in favor of. However, they've both been blocked by Democrats. Do you really want to be the party of partial birth abortions and human cloning?
DURBIN: I think you're going to find a strong bipartisan consensus for the Supreme Court position on this. The Supreme Court took a look at a Nebraska statute on partial birth abortion and said, unless it protects the life and heath of the mother, it's unconstitutional. If the president is prepared to stand behind the banning of partial birth abortion and protecting the life and health of the mother, he will have a virtually unanimous roll call in the Senate.
CARLSON: But wait a second. I mean Clinton vetoed a pretty clear legislation on this twice, and Democrats basically stood up and said, yes, we support the right to commit partial birth abortion.
DURBN: Tucker, read the law. Because what it did was exclude the health of the mother. And the Supreme Court has already said that isn't going to work. Now if we're going to go through this political gamesmanship to make sure we've got those for partial birth abortion and those against...
CARLSON: There's nothing political about it.
DURBIN: Well, it is. Because, frankly, put life and health in there and it will pass immediately.
ALLEN: The problem with health is you have to have a modifier on it, otherwise you're going to get into emotional health and mental health and so forth, as opposed to physical health.
BEGALA: Let me justwe only have a few seconds left...
DURBIN: Well the Supreme Court should not be making the law, it should be elected people.
BEGALA: ... but I want to come back to this question of fiscal discipline. In the entire federal government, what is one spending program you would eliminate, Senator Allen?
ALLEN: One spending program I would eliminate? I would say that there's excessive spending in some areas that can be privatized in many agencies, in transportation. Also, I think that in some of the technology aspects we can embrace some of the outside enterprise technology systems and a variety of them.
And one area where I'm hopeful that this will happen will be in what was called a terrorist threat integration center, which I think will be very important, integrating all the analysis of all the information coming into the CIA, defense intelligence, homeland security. Those are areas I think can be outsourced and save money and do a better job.
CARLSON: Unfortunately, we are completely out of time. Senator Allen, Senator Durbin, thank you both.