CNN "Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees" - Transcript: Interview with James Clyburn

Interview

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COOPER: Congressman Clyburn, you've been involved in the Civil Rights Movement your entire life. When you see the images of protesters across the country today, we saw in city after city, people peacefully by and large protesting. What do you think? How does this moment feel to you?

REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D-SC): A little bit surreal, and you know, when you look at what we're doing back in the 1960s and 1970s for that matter, we really thought that were we to succeed, that it would be moving on to the next chapter.

And I thought that for a long time, but the more I studied history and the longer I lived it, I began to see the realization that in this country, things move like a pendulum on the clock.

They seem to go to the right for a while, then back left for a while, then back right. And I think that what we saw is when the country moved to the left and elected Barack Obama, there was this rush to get the country going back to the right. And, boy, did it go back to the right, and we elected Donald Trump.

I don't believe that anybody realized at the time that the country was being pushed over the cliff. And I'll tell you, what I feel today is that the future of this country is really at stake.

I think that what has gone on, not just in the streets, but what's going on in the White House leads me to believe, from my study of history, that this country is at a crossroads, and if we don't choose wisely between now and the end of this year, I think that we are seeing the demise of the greatest democracy ever on Earth.

COOPER: You believe the stakes are that high? That that is the alternative?

CLYBURN: Yes, I do believe that, and one of the reasons we study history is hopefully to understand what to do and what not to do going forward.

I think it was George Santayana who admonished that if you fail to learn the lessons of history, you're bound to repeat them. So, the question is, have we learned any lessons of our history? We seem not to be learning any lessons.

And if we don't learn them, then we're going to repeat that. Anybody who studied history long at all will know that no matter how great the power gets, if you are not careful, you can lose that.

Now, I don't know if Thomas Jefferson ever said it, but they always say that he said -- and though, I've done research and I can't find where Thomas Jefferson ever said that the price of liberty is eternal vigilance.

Whether or not he said it, it is a truism. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance. We are losing that.

COOPER: Last night, you know, when there was a curfew in New York, for the first time since 1943, I wondered -- I wonder what that curfew was back in 1943? So, I looked it up. It was August 1943, and the reason there was a curfew in New York then was because a white police officer shot an African-American man, a soldier who had fought in the war and shot him in the streets, didn't kill him, but shot him and that led to days of protests and what they call rioting and curfew happened.

So when somebody looks at that and says, well, look, there have been peaceful protests for a long time, and the problems still remain. What do you say? What do you say to give hope to somebody that change is possible?

[20:20:35]

CLYBURN: Well, I will say to young people, you shouldn't give up on the system. Do like John Lewis asked us to do a couple of days ago. You know, I tell people all the time, I met my wife in jail. So, I know what this is all about. We stayed married for 58 years. It worked pretty good for us.

I think that we have to always remember that we have to make sacrifices to make this country work, and if we work together, maintaining solidarity with each other and do not allow yourself to play your opponent's game, violence is not our game. That's our opponent's game.

The President used violence last night, the unjust use of force. It's just as violent as the unjust use of power. So, power the president used unjustly, and sometimes people in the streets are using force unjustly. Both of them are misuses of power. Both of them are violent acts which must come to a close.

COOPER: One of the things that I find stunning about what the President said yesterday is, he now says, I'm your law and order President.

But to me, it seems like the peaceful protesters, people who are calling for systematic change, who are calling for equal rights, who are calling for equal treatment under the law, those are people who want law and order.

Law and order is not a police force dominating a group of people. Law and order is a police force treating everybody equally under the law. That's law and order.

CLYBURN: Well, you know, George Will has just written about this President and he has also written about the Republican Party, and I find it kind of interesting.

When I call for this country to use the CARES Act to restructure things in the vision of this great country, with liberty and justice for all, it's there in our Pledge of Allegiance, I was mocked on the floor of the United States Senate by the Republican leader of the Senate, Mitch McConnell.

And all kinds of tweets went out over the airwaves about me using that term of reshaping things, restructuring things in the vision of this great country.

We've got to restructure healthcare. We've got to restructure the judicial system. We've got to restructure our educational system. I'm not backing away from that. And I'm not going to stop because people mock that.

When I called for investing in low-income communities, I came up with my 10, 20, 30 formula. Spend at least 10 percent of this money for 20 percent of the population that is stuck beneath the poverty level for the last 30 years. I've been mocked by people for doing that.

Yet some people say, that's a good way to address the question of reparations. If we stop mocking people and just look at the substance that people are trying to pursue, that's what this President is doing. He mocks people. He insults people.

And know, he is using violence against peaceful protesters. This President is taking this country to a place that none of us ever thought we would see, and I would hope the Republican Party will wake up. I would hope the people of this country will wake up before it's too late.

COOPER: Congressman Clyburn, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

CLYBURN: Thank you.

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