CNN "State of the Union" - Transcript: Interview With Sen. Bernie Sanders
Interview
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But let's begin with the 2020 Democratic primaries, another big test Tuesday night, six states set to vote on what has become a two-man race between former Vice President Joe Biden and Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders, who is looking to repeat his big upset win in Michigan in 2016 to slow Biden's momentum this time.
Joining me now from Grand Rapids, Michigan, is Senator Bernie Sanders.
Senator, thanks so much for joining us. Appreciate it.
You have acknowledged that, while you won California, Utah, Vermont, and Colorado...
SANDERS: Colorado.
TAPPER: Yes, Colorado -- more generally, Super Tuesday did not go the way you hoped. You lost primaries that you won in 2016, such as Maine, Minnesota, Oklahoma.
Now, you won Michigan in 2016 and identified it as a pivotal state for November.
If you don't win Michigan Tuesday, will that signal to you that your efforts to broaden your support are not working?
SANDERS: Well, obviously, Michigan is an enormously important state.
And I'm very proud that, today, Jesse Jackson, who, as you know, is -- has been one of the great civil rights leaders in our country, who, when he ran for president in '88, actually won here in Michigan, he is going to be with me here today and strongly supporting our campaign.
And what Reverend Jackson understands is that we have to move aggressively to wipe out all forms of racism in this country, and we need an economic agenda that speaks to the needs of working people, not just the billionaire class.
I think, with Reverend Jackson on board, I think we got a real boost in our campaign. We're working as hard as we can, because Michigan is very, very significant in terms of the primary process. We hope to repeat the victory we had in 2016.
TAPPER: You canceled an event in Mississippi, where seven in 10 Democratic primary voters are black, in order to focus on Michigan instead.
This came, of course, after black voters overwhelmingly voted for Biden on Super Tuesday.
Do you worry about what message that might send to voters of color in places such as Mississippi?
SANDERS: No, I don't.
Look, everybody -- everybody knows that there are limited amounts of time. We did three rallies yesterday. We were in Chicago, Illinois -- and Illinois' primary is coming up in a week -- where we had 15,000 people out at Grant Park.
We have two rallies today. We did three yesterday. We are working as hard as we can. And you have to adjust the schedule every moment. We look forward to doing as well as we can in Mississippi. It is going to be a tough state for us.
But, right now, our focus is here in Michigan, where we think we have the agenda that can win this state. And, also, with two people in the race -- now, it's Vice President Biden and myself -- we have the opportunity to contrast our voting records, our vision for the future.
And in Michigan, the people here have been devastated, devastated, in Flint, in Detroit, by these disastrous trade agreements that Joe Biden voted for. He voted for NAFTA. He voted for PNTR with China, which forced American workers to compete against desperate people who are making pennies an hour.
[09:05:11]
We lost over four million good-paying jobs as a result of those trade agreements, 160,000 jobs here in Michigan alone. I voted and helped lead the opposition to those disastrous trade agreements. I worked with the unions. I knew what they would do.
And, unfortunately, I was right.
Joe voted for the war in Iraq, the worst foreign policy blunder in the modern history of this country. I led the opposition to it.
Joe voted for the Wall Street bailout. I led the opposition to that.
So I think people have a right to know what our record is and what our vision is for the future. And now that there are two people in the race, we're going to have the opportunity to have that debate.
TAPPER: The vice president's response to that is that he helped lead the efforts for the auto bailout, which saved a lot of jobs in Michigan.
SANDERS: Well, it wasn't just the vice president. He was vice president. Barack Obama was the president. Members of Congress worked very hard on that bailout as well. But the bottom line here is, we have had -- you know, if you're
talking about taking on Trump and defeating Trump -- and Joe understands and I understand that we have got to do everything possible to defeat Trump -- and I will support Joe if he wins. He will support me if I win.
But going into states like Michigan, going into Pennsylvania, going into Wisconsin, key battleground states, these are all states that have been devastated by these terrible trade agreements.
And I fear very much, if Joe is the candidate, believe me, Trump will and has already talked about Joe's record on trade.
I believe that we are the strongest campaign to defeat Donald Trump, A, because we have a grassroots movement that is unparalleled, B, because we have a voting record that speaks to the needs of working families.
I believe that the United States has got to join every other major country on Earth, guarantee health care to all people as a human right, helped lead the effort on that, helped lead the effort to raise the minimum wage to 15 bucks an hour, helped lead the effort to demand that, at a time of massive income and wealth inequality, the rich and the billionaire class start paying their fair share of taxes.
TAPPER: Senator, are you saying that Joe Biden will lose Michigan and other Industrial Midwest states to President Trump if he's the nominee?
SANDERS: No, I'm not saying that. And I have been asked that a million times. And I believe Joe can beat Trump. And if Joe is the candidate, I will do everything I can to make sure that he does.
But I think, just looking at the facts, if you're going into the industrial base of the United States of America, the heartland of America, and you voted for agreements that have devastated communities, like Flint, Detroit, it's kind of hard to make the case, when Trump has made trade such an important part of his agenda.
Now, Trump lies all of the time. I mean, he is a pathological liar. He is running a corrupt administration.
But it will be hard, I believe -- not to say that he can't do it, but it will be hard for Joe to defend a record on trade when it has had such a negative impact on the Midwest.
TAPPER: I want to ask you about the latest in the coronavirus outbreak in the U.S.
The CDC says older people and other vulnerable individuals should avoid crowds. The South by Southwest Festival was canceled. The NBA is talking about potentially having games with no fans.
You're running for president, so you set a tone as a leader on this. Now, you have promised, in terms of your rallies, that you won't endanger anyone's health. At what point will it not be worth the risk of having rallies?
SANDERS: That's a good question.
And all that I can tell you, Jake, is, we are in communications with public health officials wherever we go.
Yesterday, we had a rally in Chicago, Grant Park. we have 15,000 people out. Now, I love rallies. But your point is well-taken. We will not endanger the health of anybody in this country.
And I think there are many organizations, the NBA being one, theaters all over this country. I mean, this -- we are watching this thing very, very carefully.
What is most important is the health of the American people. And we are in constant contact with public health officials and getting their advice.
TAPPER: More personally, sir, let me ask you, the CDC is now saying that older Americans should limit their travel and avoid crowds.
(LAUGHTER)
TAPPER: You, President Trump, Vice President Biden, you're all older Americans.
Do you think that all three of you should be limiting your travel and avoiding crowds?
SANDERS: Well, in the best of all possible worlds, maybe.
But, right now, we're running as hard as we can. We did three rallies yesterday. We're doing two rallies today. I have been working really, really hard.
Look, this is the most consequential election in the modern history of the United States of America. Trump, in my view, is a president who is a liar, who is a -- running a corrupt administration, who does not understand the Constitution of the United States, who thinks he's above the law.
He has to be beaten. And I believe I am the strongest candidate to do that. And I'm going to work as hard as I can to make sure that we win this Democratic nomination and that we defeat Trump.
[09:10:06]
TAPPER: Sir, I have to ask you about something that happened Thursday night at your rally in Phoenix, where an individual unfurled a Nazi flag, a swastika, before being removed by security. I know you didn't see it in the moment, but you saw it later.
You could be the first Jewish major party nominee for president in American history. What was your reaction when you saw that somebody unfurled a swastika at your rally? SANDERS: I tell you, to be honest with you, I was -- he was behind
me. And I was speaking to the crowd. And I saw crowds booing.
And I turned around. I didn't quite see what it was. I learned about it right after I left the stage.
Jake, we have been disrupted by various groups. Some Trump people have gotten excited, and we have gotten rid of them. But the idea that there was a swastika, a symbol of everything that this country stands against -- we lost 400,000 people fighting that symbol, fighting Nazism.
Six million Jews were killed. Other people were killed, the most devastating war in the history of humanity. And you have in the United States of America somebody -- who is an anti-Semite, was yelling out vulgar things as well.
Obviously, it is unspeakable. It is disgusting. It is something -- I got to tell you, I never expected in my life, as an American, to see a swastika at a major political rally. It's horrible.
TAPPER: Your campaign manager and communications director have been tweeting this weekend, pointing out that you have a more rigorous schedule and give longer speeches than your Democratic rival, Joe Biden. You had three events, comparing that to his schedule yesterday.
Do you think that Vice President Biden is not up to the task in terms of the rigors of being either the Democratic nominee or being the president?
SANDERS: No. No.
I think what we're talking about is my schedule, which I just mentioned to you. And, by the way, we're in Grand Rapids, Michigan. And later this afternoon, we're going to hold a rally here.
And Reverend Jesse Jackson, who, as you know, is one of the great heroes and one of the great leaders of the civil rights movement in this century -- Jesse has transformed, the Reverend Jackson has transformed politics in America, has brought black and white and Latinos together, has demanded and done an extraordinary job in fighting against racism for his entire career, who understands that we need to have an economy and a government that works for all black and white and Latinos, and not just the very rich.
He will be joining me and supporting our campaign. And we're very excited about that.
But, look, Joe Biden is a friend of mine. And Joe and I have disagreements on the issue. I do not make personal attacks on Joe.
TAPPER: I want to ask you about Senator Warren.
She has not endorsed either you or Vice President Biden. You pointed out that -- quote -- "There was no question that her agenda, what she fought for in the campaign was far closer to what I am fighting for than what Joe Biden believes in" -- unquote.
I don't dispute that. That seems to be accurate. But that would seem to suggest that this should be an easy choice for her. Why do you think she has not endorsed you?
SANDERS: Well, I'm not going to speculate that.
We would love to have Senator Warren's support. And we would love to have the millions of people who supported Senator Warren in her campaign on board.
Senator Warren talked about a wealth tax, something that I think is enormously important.
And we have a -- we also have a wealth tax, nuanced different than hers, but the same principle, that, at a time of massive income and wealth inequality, when three people own more wealth than the bottom half of America, when the very, very rich are becoming phenomenally richer, yes, we need to demand that they pay their fair share of taxes, so we can deal with the homelessness crisis in this country, so that we can improve public education in this country, so that we can guarantee health care to all people as a human right.
So, we reach out. We're looking and asking for the support of Senator Warren's supporters, and hope they come on board.
TAPPER: You know, there are a lot of people in the Democratic Party who are disappointed with the fact that, with the most diverse field in the history of the United States, the nomination is coming down to two white men.
And I say that as a white man, so I hope you're not offended.
(LAUGHTER)
TAPPER: But -- but do you think that the...
SANDERS: No, I know I'm white. All right.
TAPPER: You're -- you're aware of it. OK.
SANDERS: I'm sorry. Go ahead.
TAPPER: So, do you think...
SANDERS: Yes, I am aware of that, Jake.
TAPPER: Do you think that sexism and other forms of bigotry are -- remain hurdles for candidates appealing for...
SANDERS: Yes, I do.
TAPPER: ... not just the general electorate, but for the Democratic votes?
SANDERS: Look, the answer -- the short answer is, yes, I do. I think women have obstacles placed in front of them that men do not
have. On the other hand, we have made progress in the last 40, 50 years in terms of the number of the women who are now in the Congress.
[09:15:01]
You can remember, it wasn't so many years ago, a few decades ago, that Barbara Mikulski of Maryland was the only woman in the United States Senate. And we have made some progress.
But the day has got to come sooner and later that women can see themselves equally represented in Congress, a half or more members of Congress, president of the United States, leaders of companies all over this country.
We're making progress, but it's too slow. And we have got to get rid of all of the vestiges of sexism that exist in this country, which is still pretty rampant.
TAPPER: All right, Senator Sanders, thanks so much. Good luck on Tuesday. Appreciate your time.
SANDERS: Thank you.
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