CNN "CNN Newsroom" - Transcript: nterview With Sen. Chris Coons (D-DE); Impeachment Trial Preparations

Interview

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And joining me now is Senator Chris Coons. He is a Democrat from Delaware, a member of the Judiciary and Foreign Relations committees.

Senator, thank you so much for joining me.

I want to start with you with what Kaitlan was just talking about, the president's legal response, and specifically the notion that what the Democrats in the House impeached him for, it did not break any law, therefore, it's not legitimate.

Here's what they say in their brief.

"Every prior presidential impeachment in our history has been based on alleged violations of existing law, indeed, criminal law. House Democrats' newly invented abuse of power theory collapses at the -- at the threshold because it fails to allege any violation of law whatsoever."

What is your response to that, Senator?

SEN. CHRIS COONS (D-DE): Well, Dana, I think that argument is wrong on the law and on the facts.

Let's first talk about our Constitution. In 1787, the Constitutional Convention debated impeachment and putting in a provision that would allow Congress, as part of the checks and balances that are foundational to our constitutional order, the ability to rein in an executive who was abusing the public trust.

And it was, I think, Alexander Hamilton, in Federalist 65, who expounded upon that, that the goal of the impeachment process was to give the people, through their representatives in Congress, the chance to rein in someone who was behaving in a way that was harmful to the country and that violated public trust.

For second, I will simply remind you that, last week, the Government Accountability Office, or the GAO, came out with a report reaching the conclusion that President Trump did, in fact, break the law, broke the Impoundment Control Act, when he withheld appropriated funds from Ukraine for military aid.

BASH: Right.

COONS: Third, my understanding, on a quick reading of the president's answer, is that the House did allege specific violations of crime in the underlying materials supporting the abuse of power charge in the impeachment. I am looking forward to what I suspect will be hours of debate back

and forth on this point in front of the Senate, as we sit as a jury this coming week. I am going to continue to read what is a more-than- 100-page filing from President Trump's attorneys that I just received an hour or two ago.

This is going to be a complex trial with A lot of issues. Thank you for covering it thoroughly.

BASH: Well, let me ask about another part of this brief, just kind of the other big umbrella issue, which is obstruction of Congress, the second article of impeachment.

The president's attorneys say this. They say that: "House Democrats' obstruction of Congress claim is frivolous and dangerous. House Democrats proposed removing the president from office because he asserted legal rights and privileges of the executive branch against effective subpoenas based on advice from the Department of Justice."

Your response to that?

COONS: Well, several points.

Privilege does not mean you don't have to testify. A privilege, like executive privilege, can prevent a requirement to testify to specific conversations and content.

But the way that President Trump has asserted executive privilege to prevent witnesses from even appearance in front of the House goes beyond any precedent in terms of the scope of executive privilege.

[15:10:06]

For second, if President Trump is so intent on being exonerated before the Senate, what is he afraid of? If he believes he's done nothing wrong, why continue to block witnesses and evidence from being presented before the Senate for a fair trial?

The Republicans that control the Senate, I remind you, are likely to give him everything he wants procedurally in front of the Senate. So, frankly, as a matter of politics, I would also suggest to the president he should not be so concerned about asserting privilege to prevent anything from appearing in front of the Senate.

BASH: OK.

Let me also get to another important claim in the White House counsel brief that you will have specific interest in, because it's about the former Vice President Joe Biden, who is your mentor. I know you have endorsed him for president. You are a senator from Delaware, where he once served.

Here is what --

COONS: Campaigned for him just this past week, yes.

BASH: There you go.

Here's what they say about the vice president and what the president asked of the Ukraine leader.

"Public reports suggested that Vice President Biden played a role in derailing a legitimate inquiry while under a monumental conflict of interest."

And it goes on to say: "If Biden were not running for president,, House Democrats would not argue that merely raising the incident would have been improper. But former Vice President Biden did not immunize his past conduct or his son's from all scrutiny simply by declaring his candidacy for the presidency."

Your response to that?

COONS: Well, that's a novel argument.

Every respectable journalistic outlet that has examined this story -- and that's many of them -- has found not a shred of truth to the allegation repeated here in that argument that somehow the former vice president did something improper.

In fact, he was carrying out the wishes, not just of President Obama, but many in Congress, as well as our allies in Europe, in pressing for a demonstrably corrupt prosecutor to be removed. And that did not benefit the company on whose board Hunter Biden served.

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COONS: The larger point here -- and I know this will be argued at great length this coming week -- is that there is no direct relevance to the charges that are in front of the Senate.

What we should be getting more evidence and witnesses for this week in front of the Senate is whether or not President Trump ordered the withholding of aid for a particular purpose, namely, the gathering of political information that would be helpful to his reelection and harmful to his strongest opponent, Joe Biden.

BASH: And just real quick, what -- just in general, let's just say, just hypothetically, that there was something to ask the Ukrainian leader about vis-a-vis Joe Biden.

Would it be appropriate for this president, any president, to do that, to ask a foreign leader for help in an investigation? That's what they're arguing, that it was OK, that there's nothing wrong with it.

COONS: Right.

Well, President Trump, as you know, has argued since the day a whistle-blower brought this conversation to light that it was a perfect conversation.

It does happen, Dana, that American administrations help -- ask other countries for their help in legitimate investigations, and we provide help to other countries.

So, for example, if there's a fugitive or if there's a criminal conspiracy, there are -- there is cooperation and partnerships between countries.

The whole issue here is the likely corrupt purpose -- that's what's being alleged -- behind President Trump's asking Zelensky to do him a favor.

One of the pieces of circumstantial evidence that raises doubts about his motives is that, in that conversation in the transcript, it's clear that he asked the president of Ukraine to meet with Rudy Giuliani, who was not representing the United States, who was not representing the interests of the United States, but was acting as President Trump's personal attorney, traveling to Ukraine to try and gin up dirt on his political opponents.

BASH: Senator --

COONS: The fact that he does that, in this -- in this transcript of the call, suggests a purpose that was not squarely in line with America's national interests.

BASH: Forgive me. There's a delay here.

Before I let you go, I just want to talk about what today is, switching gears.

COONS: There is.

BASH: And that is Martin Luther King holiday, in honor of his birthday.

You and I were together at a civil rights trip down that John Lewis takes every year. And it was during -- it was the year of --

COONS: Government --

BASH: Right. It was the year of the 50th anniversary of when Martin Luther King was assassinated.

We were down at the place where he was assassinated with John Lewis, the congressman, who was there for the very first time.

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And I just want to play for you and our viewers what John Lewis said about Martin Luther King at that moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOHN LEWIS (D-GA): He taught me how to live. He taught me to never give up, to never give in, to be hopeful, to be optimistic.

And he used to call me, Senator, the boy from Troy. And I grew up outside of Troy, Alabama. He would always, how is the boy from Troy doing?

So, I spent time in Nashville, six years attending school, during the sit-ins, left that to go on the Freedom Ride.

But along the way, Dr. King was there with us every step of the way. And when he died, I think something died in all of us. Something died in America.

And each day, I think we must find a way to dream the dreams that he dreamed and build on what he for all of us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: And he also talked about writing a letter when he was 15 years old to Martin Luther King Jr., and then getting a response. And that was how John Lewis started his role in the civil rights movement.

Your thoughts on this day before we -- before we let you go?

COONS: Dana, thank you for sharing that with your viewers.

It was a very somber day for all of us who were at the Lorraine Motel at the 50th anniversary of King's assassination.

But that story is also a reminder of the power of young Americans to pick up the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King's dream and carry it forward.

King was in Memphis because he was joining a sanitation workers strike. He did dream great dreams, but he also had a vision. And he took action. He joined with organized labor. He joined with civil rights marchers. He joined with protesters.

And he ultimately encouraged and supported now Congressman John Lewis in his march in Selma across the Edmund Pettus Bridge that led to Bloody Sunday and led to the Voting Rights Act.

There is so much left for us to do, Dana, to make real the dream of Martin Luther King, to end voter suppression in this country, to strengthen labor rights, to continue to be committed to the cause of justice.

And as I have attended events up and down the state of Delaware today, many of the speakers are folks who are calling us, young people, seasoned saints and those who have served at all stages in their lives, to be engaged in the work of justice in the memory of the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King.

BASH: Senator Chris Coons, thank you so much for sharing that, and thank you for joining me today. Appreciate it.

And our breaking news coverage is going to continue on the impeachment trial. A brief filed by the Trump team. Is calling the entire process a charade a legal argument?

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