NBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Dick Durbin

Interview

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CHUCK TODD:

And joining me now is the number-two Democrat in the United States Senate. It's Dick Durbin of Illinois. Senator Durbin, welcome back to Meet the Press, sir.

SENATOR DICK DURBIN:

Good morning, Chuck.

CHUCK TODD:

Before I get to what Tuesday will look like, let me ask this. Are there any active negotiations happening right now between your leadership team, yourself and Senator Schumer, and Senator McConnell, Senator Cornyn, and the Republican leadership team?

SENATOR DICK DURBIN:

I checked. And as of late last night, there really had not been an exchange, for instance, of the McConnell memo, which is supposed to kick off this entire trial. You know, we're less than -- a little over 48 hours away from the trial actually commencing. And there hasn't been the most basic negotiation or exchange of information.

CHUCK TODD:

So it sounds like you guys, instead of having a debate behind the scenes, you're going to have this debate in front of us, on Tuesday. So, you know, it looks like Senator McConnell's going to outline rules that, while similar to Clinton -- what do you make of this reporting that indicates he's thinking of doubling the amount of trial time per day, to speed up this trial?

SENATOR DICK DURBIN:

Chuck, as you said in the opening here, Donald Trump is on trial for impeachment and the jury, of course, will be 100 senators. But the Senate itself is on trial, as far as I'm concerned, and the jury's the American people. The question is whether or not we are going to have a fair trial, whether the members of the Senate are going to be loyal to the Constitution or loyal to the president. A fair trial, everyone understands, involves evidence. Evidence would be documents and witnesses. We know the president has refused to provide documentation beyond the July 25th telephone memo. And he's refused to provide basic witnesses, who actually heard what happened on that conversation and saw what happened afterwards. So at this point, you know, the Senate is on trial. And I hope, at the end of the day, enough Republican senators will understand, history will find you. Make certain that you make a decision that you can live with in terms of our Constitution and your own professional career.

CHUCK TODD:

So explain what you're going to try to do on Tuesday. He's going to introduce rules outlining this. There's going to be some debate. What power do you have, other than rhetoric?

SENATOR DICK DURBIN:

Well, it's an interesting situation. The Senate members, by and large, are silenced. We can make motions. We can amend motions that are made before the Senate. The argument for those positions will be made by House managers, on the Democratic side, and the president's legal team, on his side. There may be some rulings by the chief justice presiding over this. But ultimately, the decision is made by majority vote of the United States Senate. That's the process we follow.

CHUCK TODD:

Does this mean you have to be working with Adam Schiff, Jerry Nadler, the House impeachment managers, on certain Senate rules that you're going to debate, since they have to do the debating on your behalf?

SENATOR DICK DURBIN:

Well, it goes without saying that, on both sides, giving a heads up and fair notice to the managers, as well as the president's defense team, on the Republican side, is necessary, if they're going to have to argue the position of the motions that we make.

CHUCK TODD:

So that means you have to, essentially, work with Adam Schiff to make these -- let me ask you this. What motions are you going to call for on Tuesday that you know Mitch McConnell's going to try to stop?

SENATOR DICK DURBIN:

I don't know exactly what will transpire. As I mentioned, we don't know what the McConnell memo or resolution includes, as we start up. But we've been very open about this. Chuck Schumer and the Democrats in the Senate have said, "Let's bring in the witnesses. Let's put the truth before the American people and let them join us in judgement." So I would assume that the early motions made by Chuck Schumer, on behalf of Democrats, will go right to that point.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me get you to respond to something from the president's legal team. It wasn't their official briefing. It was more of just their official response, so more of a statement than a legal document right now. But this is what they write. "House Democrats' abuse-of-power claim would do lasting damage to the separation of powers under the Constitution." The essential argument they're making is that this is very subjective. It's a partisan decision that was made in the House, or it's not a bipartisan decision. And abuse of power isn't -- there isn't a defined -- it isn't defined anywhere in law. So how do you respond to that critique?

SENATOR DICK DURBIN:

I'd just ask those who criticize it to take a look at Federalist 65. Alexander Hamilton, not the musical, the real Alexander Hamilton, actually spoke out about what this trial gets down to. They were saying, at the beginning, that the standards are treason, bribery, high crimes and misdemeanors. And it goes beyond the commission of a crime. Alan Dershowitz takes a very unique position, saying, "A crime must have been committed." But when it comes to the abuse of power of the office, you know, the president used -- misused the office for personal political gain. That, to me, is in the realm of what they considered in high crimes and misdemeanors, in the abuse of power.

CHUCK TODD:

The accusations and the documents that Lev Parnas, the Giuliani associate that is now, I guess, cooperating with the Southern District of New York, looking, perhaps, for some leniency here, we don't know what his motive is to release all this information, how do you plan to get that evidence into this trial, since it's not clear there's an avenue for it?

SENATOR DICK DURBIN:

Well, I think it all depends on four Republican senators. They have to join us in, really, the pursuit of truth, to make sure the American people hear the whole story. Whether that includes Mr. Parnas or not, I can't say. We have four witnesses, that we believe are essential to start this conversation and to put the evidence before the American people. He has confirmed many of the suspicions we had about this Giuliani effort, on behalf of the president, and how far it went. There is now implicated, for example, a member of the House of Representatives, on the Republican side. There's a lot of issues that he's raised. But in terms of whether or not he or anyone associated with him is called as a witness, most of us believe the trial should start with the four basic witnesses we've called for.

CHUCK TODD:

I understand that. But if you get four or more Republican senators to agree with you on that, but they basically say, "Yes, but the president gets to call a set of witnesses that they want to call, too." Are you comfortable with that outcome, if it means one of those witnesses may have the last name of Biden?

SENATOR DICK DURBIN:

Well, listen. I don't know what the Republicans will suggest. But we've been told that, even within their caucus, there is a dispute as to whether or not that is really in their best interest, whether that's more theater than it should be. But the bottom line is this. The four Republican senators who will initiate, could initiate calling witnesses will really open a negotiation between the Republicans and Democrats in the Senate. The bottom line, is there going to be a fair trial? Are we going to have evidence, documents, and witnesses? To this point, Senator McConnell has said, "No, not necessary." He's made up his mind long ago. But I think the American people expect a real trial to have real witnesses and evidence.

CHUCK TODD:

Is the outcome in doubt, even if you get your witnesses?

SENATOR DICK DURBIN:

In terms of the ultimate vote, I can't say. I don't know how this will unfold. I join my other colleagues and tell you that there was a moment when the chief justice arrived, and we each raised our right hand, that you could feel a change in the United States Senate. I saw it 20 years ago, with the impeachment trial of Bill Clinton. And I've seen it now, in this impeachment trial of Donald Trump. There is a feeling that we have a separate and awesome responsibility, under the Constitution, not to let the American people down and to make sure we do the right thing. So the ultimate outcome, I can't predict.

CHUCK TODD:

One final question on the obstruction article. Should the House have made more of an effort in the courts, before they filed that obstruction article?

SENATOR DICK DURBIN:

I can tell you that the court's process is a long one. It would have gone way beyond the current time, into some period right before the election. But don't forget that the House Judiciary Chairman, Jerry Nadler, offered to the president of the United States the opportunity to bring his attorney into their Judiciary Committee hearing, to ask questions, to produce evidence. They refused. If there's evidence out there that exonerates the president, we're still waiting to see it.

CHUCK TODD:

Senator Durbin, I will leave it there. Democrat from Illinois, number two in the Senate leadership, thank you for coming on, sir, and sharing your views.

SENATOR DICK DURBIN:

Good to be with you.

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