CNN "CNN Newsroom" - Transcript: "Interview with Rep. Don Bacon"
Interview
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SCIUTTO: House Democrats could soon hear from someone who was on the line during President Trump's phone call with the Ukrainian President Zelensky. Tim Morrison, top Russia and Europe adviser on President Trump's National Security Council, he is reportedly scheduled to appear on Thursday. Sources tell CNN he is expected to corroborate key elements of what lawmakers heard from top U.S. diplomat to Ukraine Bill Taylor on Tuesday.
At the same time, we've learning that impeachment investigators are negotiating a private deposition date with attorneys for the former national security adviser, John Bolton. These are all significant witnesses.
Pleased to be joined now by Nebraska Republican Congressman Don Bacon, who's a veteran as well.
Congressman, we appreciate you taking the time this morning.
REP. DON BACON (R-NE): Thank you, Jim. It's good to be with you.
SCIUTTO: So I want to start on the process of the impeachment inquiry. You have said the process is unfair. Your colleagues, in particular, in the GOP, zero in on the private nature of these initial depositions and interviews.
I just want to play a comment from Trey Gowdy last year regarding House hearings with former FBI officials Peter Strzok and Lisa Page.
Have a listen.
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REP. TREY GOWDY (R-SC): Well, our private hearing was much more constructive than the public hearing. I mean public hearings are a circus, Margaret. I mean that's why I don't like to do them. I don't do many of them. I mean they're -- it's a freak show.
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SCIUTTO: Why was it OK to do private hearings then but not OK to do them now as an initial step in an investigation?
BACON: Well, I think investigations are one thing, but when you're going to do an impeachment inquiry, I think the American people want to know what's going on, what's being said. So 75 percent of the House members, they have no access to the transcripts. The only thing that I read is what's leaked. And so the people ask me, what's your view on Ambassador Taylor's comments or this or that comment. All I'm getting is leaked material from the chairman of the committee.
Investigations are one thing. This is an impeachment inquiry, according to the speaker, that we never voted on. And to have secret hearings where the president cannot bring in his attorney --
SCIUTTO: Well --
BACON: Unlike President Clinton was able to and Nixon. And we can't bring in our minority witnesses. I think it's a unfair process.
SCIUTTO: Well, you do know, as you know, there are Republicans in the room, one. And, two, the rules of these inquiries have changed since the Clinton and Nixon impeachments, giving the opposing party rights that they didn't have prior.
I'm just wondering, if Republicans are, you know, in effect creating a sense of secrecy that doesn't actually exist. I mean there are Republicans in the room after all. They're able to ask as many questions as they want.
BACON: All right, so 25 percent of the Congress -- or the House is able to go to these meetings, but they're not allowed to share, by agreement, they're not allowed to share what was said.
But we are reading some targeted excerpts that Chairman Schiff is putting out there. So he's taking the worst material that they can hear and they're leaking it out. And I'm hearing that it's not very -- it doesn't represent the real basis of the hearings themselves, that there are a lot more favorable toward Trump, but you don't get that.
And so, in the end, I can't make a judgment because 75 percent of us are not allowed to read what's going on. So I'll have to wait and see.
I think it would be much better to have -- to release the transcripts and be much more transparent. I think Americans want fairness. They're -- not only -- in our district, about 62 percent do not want impeachment, but many of those think the president did act right. It's not impeachable. But without the information, how can you make that determination?
[09:40:02]
SCIUTTO: Right. Well, he's --
BACON: So I think we need to hear the information.
SCIUTTO: You have said that you're a firewall against impeachment if there is no law broken. Is your mind still open to a law having been broken here if you learn more? Because, after all, I'm just curious, are you comfortable with -- and we do have, even based on opening statements that we've seen, corroboration of the whistleblower's core complaint, which was that the president held not only military aid over the Ukrainians' head as he pressured them to investigate the Bidens, but also a presidential visit and now, according to "The Washington Post" story, favored trade status.
If that is corroborated via public testimony, is your mind open to impeachment under those circumstances?
BACON: If someone could prove to me and show me that a law was broken, which I have not seen, there's been no credible evidence that an actual law is broken, I don't condone the judgment of asking, you know, the Ukrainian leader about Biden. I don't think that was right. I think the president should have foresaw (ph) that this was going to cause problems. But there was no law broken. And what I do hear is that -- I've read the transcript of the
conversation from between Trump and the Ukrainian leader. There was no quid pro quo in that conversation. And what we are hearing is that the Ukrainian president didn't think he was being pressured to do it or he didn't think there was a quid pro quo for aid. And when he actually received the aid --
SCIUTTO: I don't know if that's true, congressman. With respect, it's our reporting, and other outlets reporting, that, in fact, Ukrainian officials were struggling with how to respond to the president's pressure here. They felt -- as you know, you're a veteran, you served in Europe, Ukraine, in the midst of this, is at war with Russia. A war that's killed 13,000 Ukrainians. And as this pressure is coming in, the Ukrainians are scrambling, like, how do we respond to this while we wait for the essential aid to fight a Russian invasion. I mean is that a position you would want to be in?
BACON: But there was roughly a week and a half where the Ukrainian leader knew the aid was stalled and then a week and a half later it was turned back on. So he, in the middle of that period was longer, he only knew about a short period. And there was -- he did nothing new to get that aid. So, in other words, people are saying there's quid quo pro. The president was pressuring for investigation but there was no quo. The Ukrainian leader did nothing different to actually get the aid.
So I think the other side of the aisle is going to have a very hard time proving a quid pro quo case because there was none. And -- but I would say this, I favored aid to Ukraine. I think, you know, the previous president did not provide lethal aid. He was providing meals ready to eat. We -- you know, they're non --
SCIUTTO: No, that's fair -- fair criticism.
BACON: We need to provide -- I think we should have provided aid to Ukraine. We need to help them because they are -- they are a target of aggression from Russia. And I didn't favor the delay. I actually wrote a letter to the president.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
BACON: I hear there's a delay. And it should -- it should not have happened.
SCIUTTO: Fair enough. And folks -- probably many folks don't know it as well as you having served in Europe. You're aware of the Russia threat to Europe.
Congressman, we appreciate you joining the program and thanks very much for your service to the country.
BACON: Thank you. Thank you, sir.
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