NBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Bernie Sanders
Interview
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SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Good to be with you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, let me start with something the vice president, former vice president, said yesterday. And it was a fascinating way -- he was talking about his climate change proposal. And he said, 'If you want to know what the first and most-important plank in my climate proposal is it was," quote, "beat Trump." You have said, if all the Democrats do is focus on Trump, you lose. Essentially, Biden is saying, no, no, no, no, no. It is all about Trump. Your reaction.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, I think Democrats have got to do a couple of things. Number one, it goes without saying that we have got to beat, defeat Donald Trump, who, in my view, is the most-dangerous president in the modern history of this country. He's a pathological liar. He's a sexist and a racist, et cetera, et cetera. But that is not enough. If we're talking, for example, about climate change, what the scientists tell us is that we have 12 years before irreparable damage is done to this planet. Beating Trump is not good enough. You've got to beat the fossil fuel industry. You have to take on all of those forces of the status quo, who do not want to move this country to energy efficiency and sustainable energies. Chuck, what the scientists tell us is that the future of the planet is at stake. And we have a moral responsibility to make sure that our kids live, and our grandchildren live, in a healthy and habitable planet. That means massive investments in wind, solar, and so forth and so on. So taking on Trump, of course you've got to do that. But you need a real plan to transform our energy system.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, I think another way of looking at it is you have to win, right? And you have to -- I think one of the cases you need to make to the Democrats is when -- you know, the former head of the Democratic Party in Pennsylvania, and I gather that Joe Biden has a lot of support in Pennsylvania. But here's what he said about you. He said this. "I'm supremely confident Bernie Sanders could not win Pennsylvania. When Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren open their mouths, many, many Democrats in Pennsylvania stick their fingers in their ears." Tell us how you win Pennsylvania.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Look, you know, let me just say this to Ed, who I've known for many years, and to the entire Democratic establishment. Let me tell this to Ed, that there are millions of people who are sick and tired of that Democratic establishment. What Ed should know is that a recent poll that came out had me, if I'm not mistaken, eight point ahead of Trump in Pennsylvania. We've had polls which have me way ahead of him in Michigan and Wisconsin and, in fact, all over this country. Now, the reason that we can beat, that my campaign can beat Donald Trump is we're going to create the kind of excitement that we need to bring out the large voter turnout. We're going to bring out young people, who not only are interested and are going to fight for real climate change, they want to raise that minimum wage to $15 an hour, a fight that I have been helping to lead. They want healthcare for all through a Medicare-for-all, single-payer program. They understand that it is absurd that young people should be leaving college 50,000, 60,000, 100,000 dollars in debt. They want public colleges and universities tuition free. They want criminal justice reform. They want immigration reform. And the truth is that our campaign, I think, can generate that excitement. Our generation can talk to some, some of the Trump supporters, who now know that they were lied to, when Trump said he was going to provide healthcare to everybody and then tried to throw 32 million people off their healthcare. I think we are the campaign that can beat Donald Trump.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator, I would argue, you made a very similar case against Hillary Clinton four years ago. And you came up short. Why do you think, this time --
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Hey, Chuck, Chuck, you know I --
CHUCK TODD:
-- especially when it seems like you have an exhaustive -- I'm just saying, you have, you have a part of the Democratic Party --
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Chuck, let me just say --
CHUCK TODD:
-- that seems to be gravitating toward Biden. Go ahead.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
You know, we came up short. Yeah, we took on the entire Democratic establishment. We took on the Democratic National Committee. We took on every Democratic governor. We took on every Democratic mayor. And we ended up winning 22 states and 13 million votes and, in fact, bringing forth an agenda that transformed the Democratic Party. Four years ago, people were not talking about the issues they're talking about now. So I understand that our campaign is unique in the sense that we're going to try to win the Democratic primary. We're going to try to beat the -- Trump. But you know what else we're going to try to do? We're going to try to transform the United States of America, deal with this massive level of income and wealth inequality, deal with Wall Street, deal with the greed of the drug companies and the insurance companies and the fossil fuel industry. So our campaign has a different goal. It's to transform this country. And we're taking on the entire establishment, when we do that, including Ed Rendell.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, I want to focus a second on Medicare for all. Michael Bennet, another candidate for president, believed that the lesson of 2018 was not Medicare for all but fix Obamacare. I would like you to take a listen to what he said to me earlier this year about that.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. MICHAEL BENNET:
Now, what Democrats are saying is, if you like your insurance, we're going to take it away from you, from 180 million people that get their insurance from their employer and like it, or 20 million Americans who are on Medicare Advantage and love it. That seems like a bad opening offer for me.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
And Senator, I'm well aware that you believe that, look, you were in favor of Obamacare. But it was not your first choice. And I know that. But as you know, there's a lot of voters who voted for Democrats in 2018 to fix Obamacare first then look and see, okay, should it be something different? Are you obligated to fix Obamacare first?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, we're obligated to make sure that Trump and the Republicans do not throw tens of millions of people off the healthcare that they currently are enjoying. But here's the point. The point is the current healthcare system is absolutely dysfunctional. You've got 34 million without any health insurance, even more who are underinsured. Elderly people can't afford dental care, hearing aids, eyeglasses. And for all of that, Chuck, we manage to spend twice as much money per capita on healthcare as do the people of any other country. And we pay the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs. Now, I know that the healthcare industry, the drug companies, the insurance companies, will spend hundreds of millions of dollars, including ads on NBC, attacking Bernie Sanders, attacking Medicare for all. But you know what? You look at the polling. The people support Medicare very, very strongly.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
And all we are saying is you've got a good program in Medicare. Expand it to everybody else. Improve Medicare for senior citizens. And when we do that, we're going to provide comprehensive care to all people. And we're going to do it by saving substantial sums of money --
CHUCK TODD:
Are we in --
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
-- in a dysfunctional healthcare system.
CHUCK TODD:
Under your plan, we're eliminating private insurance, correct?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
For -- we are going to provide comprehensive healthcare to all people. And what you're going to have is private insurance, if people want it, for supplementary-type benefits, cosmetics and so forth.
CHUCK TODD:
But everybody has the same baseline government healthcare insurance under your plan.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
It's a -- well, that government healthcare is what Medicare is right now. And if you look at the polling, Medicare is far more popular than private health insurance. People like Medicare.
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
We have to expand it to cover every man, woman, and child over a four-year period.
CHUCK TODD:
What do you say to the people worried about the disruption? As you know, everybody hates their healthcare, until you try to disrupt them of their -- of their current system.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, I'm not so sure about that. But what I do know, what I do know is that there's massive disruption. One of the problems with the healthcare system right now is, if your employer, Chuck, decides to get another insurance company, you may be able -- you will be losing the doctor you currently go to or have to pay a lot more to get it. Every time somebody loses their job, every some -- every time some employer changes health insurance policy, there is disruption. That impacts tens of millions of people. When you have Medicare for all, you will finally have stability. Everybody in the country will have comprehensive healthcare, covering all basic healthcare needs. We will save taxpayers, we will save the citizens of this country, on healthcare, substantial sums of money.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, I want to ask you about the big news in the state legislatures this week and, frankly, this year on the issue of abortion. Simply this, will you have a litmus test for judges on Roe? It's pretty clear, in 2020, no matter which side of the abortion issue you're on, it is going to be on the ballot, the issue of Supreme Court justices. Do you believe in that Roe litmus test?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Look, I believe what they did in Alabama is unbelievable. Other states are doing it. The idea that women in this country should not be able to control their own bodies is beyond belief. They have that constitutional right. So if you're asking me, would I ever appoint a Supreme Court justice who does not believe in defending Roe versus Wade, who does not believe that a woman has the right to control her own body, I will never do that.
CHUCK TODD:
Is there any restri --, what are the restri -- ,Do you believe there should be any restrictions on abortion in law?
BERNIE SANDERS:
I think that that is a decision that is being -- that should be made by the woman and her physician. And I think many of, you know, what people are doing, sadly, is creating a political issue out of a medical issue. So the decision about -- women should be able to control their own body. And those decisions are made by a doctor and the woman.
CHUCK TODD:
Are you at all concerned, though, about this idea that people may try to worry about the sex of a child or essentially --
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
I mean, that's a concern, yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
Are those type of restrictions on abortion something you're open to?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, that's not a -- I wouldn't use a restriction on it. That's an issue that society has got to deal with. And it is of concern.
CHUCK TODD:
How would you deal with that in the law?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
I don't know how, at this particular point, I would deal with it. But that is an issue that we really have got to deal with.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, I want to move to some foreign policy. The New York Times spent a lot of time talking about your trips to Central America. I know you got pretty worked up about those things. I think the larger question, and let me just frame the question this way, the larger question's going to be, if you're the nominee, whether you like it or not, the right's going to basically hammer and sickle you to death. How do you prevent it?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, I don't mind the right wing doing it. But I understand they will do it. I don't want the media to do it. Look, when I was a young man, I plead guilty. I voted -- I worked hard, as a young man, against the war in Vietnam. I don't apologize for that. As a member of the United States House, I helped lead the effort against the war in Iraq, which turns out to have been the worst foreign policy blunder in the modern history of the United States. As a United States senator, I led the effort to pass a bipartisan resolution to get America out of the war in Yemen, led by Saudi Arabia. And I've got to tell you something, Chuck. I hope you guys pay attention to Yemen. What's going on in Yemen now is the worst humanitarian disaster in the world. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of people, children, dying. And I'm doing my best to get the U.S. out of that war. And if Trump wants to go to war in Iran, that will make the war in Iraq look like a cakewalk. It will make it -- so we've got to do everything we can to stop that. If people want to attack me, because I think that war should be the last resort, you can attack me. But I've seen too much horror. I was the chairman of the Senate Committee on Veterans' Affairs. I talked to too many veterans whose lives were destroyed by the war in Iraq. I will do everything I can to see problems solved diplomatically, rather than through war.
CHUCK TODD:
A couple of questions. I'm curious. On the issue of the U.S. embassy in Jerusalem, would you move it back out of Jerusalem, if you thought it was a way to get a peace deal?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Yeah. I think it's something that we should -- I can't give you a definitive answer, but yeah. The answer is, look, whether it is Iran and Saudi Arabia, whether it is Israel and the Palestinians, the United States needs to bring people together, needs an even handed policy. In Saudi Arabia, for example, for decades, we have supported a murderous regime which fights democracy every single day. So I want an even handed policy which brings people together.
CHUCK TODD:
Would you move the embassy, now, out of Jerusalem? Or would you keep it there for the present?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Look, Chuck, that is -- we'll take that one step at a time. It's something -- you know, bottom line is, we need to be a -- we are the most-powerful country on Earth. Let's bring people together and try to bring peace.
CHUCK TODD:
And a final question on the foreign policy front, you point out humanitarian problems all the time. How would you deal with China and the Uyghurs, the Muslims that they're, I guess they call it, reeducating? How do you hold China accountable for that without wrecking the economy?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, I don't think you have to wreck the economy to tell China that you cannot have, I guess, it's the equivalent of almost concentration camps. Look, the United States -- and very sadly, under Donald Trump, we have moved in exactly the wrong way. He supports authoritarian governments all over the world. I believe we have to support democracy and human rights. So I think China is an important partner. I think we have to deal with trade issues. But I think it should be known that we cannot allow -- we have to stand up and oppose, governments that are doing terrible things to minorities.
CHUCK TODD:
Is there a -- is humanitarian reasons a reason to use military, to use military force? You know, that's what we did in Kosovo and Bosnia.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, I mean, it depends. Obviously, you have to look at case by case. If you're talking about the need to prevent genocide, yeah, I guess so. Yeah, but obviously, every situation is different.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Bernie Sanders, we got to a lot. I always wish we can get to more. And I hope we see you more often than we have in the last year. Thanks for being on and sharing your views. And stay safe on the trail.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Thank you.
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