CNN "The Lead with Jake Tapper" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Bernie Sanders

Interview

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TAPPER: We're back and we're following all the fallout of President Trump shutting down a meeting with congressional Democrats after the speaker of the House said she thinks Trump is involved in a cover-up. Now the question is, what happens next?

And joining me now is Democratic presidential candidate, Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. He just introduced a new proposal to generate up to $2.4 trillion in revenue over 10 years to pay for tuition-free public colleges and universities. It would be paid for on a new tax on the trading of stocks, bonds, and derivatives.

And, Senator, thanks so much for joining us. I want to ask your proposal at length, but I do have to ask you about

today's developments. Do you think it was a mistake at all for Speaker Pelosi to accuse President Trump of a cover-up minutes before she and the congressional Democrats headed to the House to try to discuss an infrastructure program with the president?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I think it is rather outrageous for the president of the United States to go storming out of the meeting, where we're trying to deal with our crumbling infrastructure and creating millions of decent-paying jobs. And I know we have a president who is so sensitive, who attacks people, who humiliates people ever single day. And if he can't take a little bit of criticism, he should think twice about being president of the United States.

But we have some important work to do in this country. Our roads, our bridges, our water systems, our waste party are falling apart. People don't have clean drinking water and it's time we address that problem. And I'm sorry that this president is quite so sensitive, but I hope he can deal with it.

TAPPER: You have said in the past that talk of impeachment in your view works to President Trump's advantage. Do you think the president has engaged in a cover-up, as Pelosi says?

SANDERS: Well, I think is -- you know, I don't know. It's obviously very hard to get into the president's mind. I think you have somebody, what can I say, who is a pathological liar, somebody who says one thing one day and something different the next day.

But I think, you know, what -- and to be very honest with you, Jake, I am not sure that this president may not want to be impeached. He may think that it works for him politically. I don't know that, but it wouldn't shock me.

I think he is a 100 percent political animal. He doesn't spend a whole lot of time worrying about health care or education, certainly not about climate change. So I don't know what goes on in his mind.

But I think if he continues to not understand the Constitution of the United States, the separation of powers, the fact that the Congress has every right to subpoena and it is the job of the administration to attend the hearings that the Congress is calling, if he doesn't understand that, it may well be time for an impeachment inquiry to begin, where the Judiciary Committee begins to determine whether or not there are grounds for impeachment.

Now, when my concern has been, is that this country faces so many problems. You know, 43 million people without any health insurance, young people who can't afford to go to college, massive student debt. You've got the climate change crisis. We have massive levels of income and wealth inequality.

We have all of these issues out there. And the American people, frankly, want us to address the issues of half of America working paycheck to paycheck. The rich getting richer. They want taxation reform.

And, you know, the worry is if we spend all of our time worrying about Trump and we ignore the needs of the American people, what ordinary folks are going to say, what about us? You're worried about Trump, what about worrying about us?

But, you know, I do understand where House members are coming from. And you've got this guy who is refusing to respect the Constitution, equal powers, and is rejecting ifs for members of the administration to come forward. So you know, I think it may be time at least to begin the process through the Judiciary Committee to determine whether or not there are impeachment proceedings.

But at the same time, Jake, and this I feel strongly about, the House has got to continue going forward, raising the minimum wage to a living wage, making sure that all of our people have health care, dealing with climate change, dealing with voter suppression. If all we talk about is Trump, Trump, Trump, I think he benefits.

TAPPER: Let's turn to these policy issues, specifically, the new proposal you just announced, the Inclusive Prosperity Act, where you want to tax a fraction of a percent on Wall Street stocks, bonds, derivative trades, spend that on revenue for tuition-free higher public education.

How is this any different from your 2017 College For All Act?

SANDERS: Well, it is different. And, by the way, we are going to introduce a new program, which will call for making public colleges and universities tuition free, so that anybody in this country, regardless of their income who has the desire and the ability can get a higher education, college or trade schools.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So that anybody in this country, regardless of their income, who has the desire and the ability can get a higher education, college or trade schools.

But it will also go a very, very long way in reducing the outrageous burden. Man, I see it all over this country, young people graduating from college $50,000 in debt, $100,000 in debt.

You saw the response that took place at Morehouse College, where these kids could not believe that they would not be having to pay off student debt for decades. That's what we have to do all over this country.

Now, the legislation that I am offering would raise $2.4 trillion over a 10-year period, at a time when Wall Street profits are now at record-breaking levels. We're talking about something like $230 billion in profits last year. You're talking about bonuses doubling over the last five years.

Wall Street is doing phenomenally well. And I hope everybody remembers that it was the American taxpayer that bailed out Wall Street some 10 years ago, because of their greed, recklessness, and illegal behavior.

Now it is time for Wall Street to pay a modest tax on speculation, so that we can address the many, many crises facing our country.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: In 2016, after Hillary Clinton at the Democratic Convention embraced your goal of tuition-free public colleges, there was some pushback from private nonprofit schools, like women's colleges or historically black colleges and universities, that such a plan could prompt a steep drop in enrollment for them that might risk putting them out of business.

How do you guard against that with your proposal now?

SANDERS: Well, our proposal, among other things, calls for a very significant increase in funding for the historically black colleges and universities, which play an enormously important role in the African-American community.

So I believe from the bottom of my heart that, when you talk about public colleges and universities in the year 2019, you just can't talk about kindergarten throughout the 12th grade. What you have got to be doing is making public colleges and universities tuition-free.

This means anybody who wants to go to Harvard, they want to go to Yale, good luck to you, go there. If you can afford to go there, that's fine. And, by the way, in terms of those schools, we are going to significantly increase Pell Grants, work study programs to make it easier and more affordable for young people to go to private schools if they want.

This is a win-win for public colleges and universities, private colleges, and, most importantly, for the people of our country who desperately understand that they need to have a great education in today's economy.

TAPPER: And, of course, there's the question about the political will. How do you get this done?

The Republicans obviously control the Senate, currently the White House as well. Last month, a Q poll, a Quinnipiac poll, found that 41 percent of Americans support making public college free if it was paid for by a new tax on wealthy individuals.

But 54 percent in this poll oppose that idea. How do you make the case to Republicans in the Senate and to the American people?

SANDERS: Well, first of all, I believe -- I don't necessarily agree with that poll. That's not what I hear.

You have got -- the difficulty is not a poll. The difficulty is the power of Wall Street. Let's be very clear. Wall Street, and maybe along with the pharmaceutical industry, are the most powerful entities here in Washington, D.C. They spend hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars a year on lobbying and in campaign contributions.

Look, they have the wealth. They have the power. You have the top six financial institutions controlling some $10 trillion in assets. That is real power. And those are the folks we're going to have to take on.

But I think you go out and ask the American people if they think their kids have a right to go to college, regardless of the income of the family, they would tell you yes. And poll after poll tells me -- and I have seen this -- that, yes, the large private corporations in America that are making huge sums of money should start paying their fair share of taxes.

It is a disgrace that a company like Amazon, for example, owned by the wealthiest person in this country, $11 billion in profits, did not pay a nickel in taxes.

TAPPER: And I have been at town halls, your town halls, before when you ask people to raise their hands if they have student debt, and it's a sea of raised hands.

SANDERS: It's unbelievable. That's right. It is a sea. TAPPER: Absolutely.

SANDERS: OK.

TAPPER: Democratic presidential candidate Senator Bernie Sanders, thank you so much for your time. Appreciate it.

SANDERS: Thank you.

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