MSNBC "All in with Chris Hayes" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Bernie Sanders

Interview

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HAYES: Good evening from Los Angeles, I`m Chris Hayes, and it is another  absolutely insane news day. Indicted Trump ally Roger Stone has been hit  with a strict gag order by the judge in his case after he posted her  picture online alongside an image of crosshairs.

A new congressional election was called North Carolina after an election`s  board hearing on flagrant electoral fraud to boost the Republican  candidate. There`s been a string of reports the Mueller probe may be  poised to wrap up any day as longtime Trump fixer Michael Cohen prepares to  testify three times before Congress next week, and Democrats are taking  their first concrete legislative steps to block the president`s national  emergency declaration at the border with a resolution to terminate his  effort to circumvent Congress to build the wall Mexico was supposed to pay  for.

And then there`s all the action in the race to take on Trump in 2020. New  Time Magazine cover depicting Trump looking back over his shoulder as a  crowded field of declared and potential candidates eyes the Oval Office.

Two days ago, a major candidate formally entered the race properly raised  nearly $6 million in just 24 hours. Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders, the  runner up for the Democratic nomination last time around declaring the time  had come to quote complete the revolution and make his vision a reality.

And joining me now for his first primetime interview since declaring his  candidacy Vermont Independent Senator Bernie Sanders. Senator, let me just  start with the emergency declaration since that`s in the news today. Chuck  Schumer says the Senate is going to introduce a resolution as well to pair  with the House. Do you support that resolution?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I), VERMONT: Of course, I do. What the president is  doing is unconstitutional, it`s illegal, and it is part of his movement  toward an authoritarian society. This guy clearly is not familiar with the  Constitution, clearly not familiar with the separation of powers. He  thinks he`s got it all. He`s the only one running the government and that  has got to stop.

HAYES: You ran for President in 2016. I think that it was a long race.  It was a hard-fought race. It`s a very different world two years later for  a lot of reasons. There`s probably a dozen or so candidates on more who  will be in the race. The issue, platforms have changed quite a bit.  There`s several candidates who have endorsed Medicare for all or free  college which are issues that you a champion. Why`d you take a look at  this race this time and say I have to run again?

SANDERS: Well, I think for a couple of reasons, Chris. First of all, I`m  proud of what we accomplished in 2016. And I`m proud that we change the  political discourse in this country that ideas that today are widely  accepted are part of the mainstream are being supported by many Democratic  candidates. If you will recall, three years ago, why these ideas was  considered to be radical and extreme and in fringe -- and fringe idea.
So we have come a long way I think in transforming the Democratic Party and  making it into a more progressive party.

Second of all, part of the political revolution was to mobilize millions of  people at the grassroots level. And what I`m very proud of in terms of  what we have accomplished in the last two days, the media talks about the 
money. That`s great. But we now have close to one million people who have signed up who want to be involved in an unprecedented campaign.

And why that`s important is that I believe from the bottom of my heart that  if you learn from the civil rights movement, from the trade union movement,  from the women`s movement, from the gay movement, you know that real change  in this country never occurs unless millions of people are standing up and  fighting back.

So if we are going to pass Medicare for all, we need to mobilize millions  of people to stand up to the insurance companies and the drug companies.  That`s what this campaign is about.

HAYES: I want to -- I want to ask another question about the -- this  campaign versus last campaign because obviously, that was a very hard- fought primary. It went on for a very long time. It was competitive in a  way I think some people didn`t expect at the beginning of it. And if  you`re going to win this time, there are people who voted for Hillary  because in the last time around whose votes you will need this time in a  Democratic primary, and there`s still some bad blood.

I mean, there are still folks who I talked to who exist in the political  worlds were loyal Democrats who feel frustrated by what they felt was your  lack of loyalty to the party or your support of Hillary Clinton or  extending the primary too long. And my question to you is what is the  message for those folks out there who may still have had sort of feelings  about that?

SANDERS: You know, I do understand that, Chris. But let`s get the facts  correct. After I endorse Hillary Clinton, I went all over this country and  I worked as hard as I could to see that she was elected and I think we  should get that clear. I think the main point to be made is that where we  are right now is that many of the major issues that I have been talking  about the years are now widely supported by the American people.

And what we have got to do is take Trump`s desire to divide us up by the  color of our skin or where we were born or our sexual orientation or our  agenda, we have got to bring our people together around a progressive  agenda. Health care is a human right. We`re going to raise that minimum  wage to $15.00 an hour. We are going to in a highly competitive global  economy make public colleges and universities tuition-free and lower  student debt.

We are going to address the existential crisis of climate change, transform  our energy system and create millions of jobs in the process. Criminal  justice reform, immigration reform, those ideas are now ideas that the  overwhelming majority of the -- of the Democratic Party believe in and we  got to bring people together around that agenda.

HAYES: One more question about 2016 and about your campaign because you  were Mayor of Burlington Roth so you have some executive experience but  that campaign was a large enterprise you were managing. There`s been some  complaints, it`s been well reported. I know you met with some folks in the  campaign about the culture and atmosphere and that camp particularly as it  pertains to sexual harassment being tolerated and the diversity of the  senior leadership of that campaign at a time when the Democratic Party is a  diverse party being excessively white and male and not having enough voices. Do you take those criticisms to heart? Are you doing things differently this time?

SANDERS: Absolutely. We take those criticisms at the heart. When people  said that our campaign was too white, too male-oriented, they are right.  You take a look at the step that we are putting together right now. Take a  look at who our national co-chairs are. You will see a fundamental  difference in the way our campaign is operating.

In terms of the issue of sexual harassment, that has troubled me immensely.  And we are putting together a protocol now which will be stronger than any  campaign has ever put together so that we prevent any of the problems we  saw in 2016.

HAYES: You just -- you just talked about a lot of issues that are issues  that you feel passionately about that you`ve campaigned about, a Medicare- for-all, climate in the Green New Deal, criminal justice reform, but  prioritization is it seems a key question in this primary and it`s a  question I`ve been asking every candidate we`ve had on which is what is  your first -- your inaugurated and by -- electoral miracle or a lot of hard  work because the Democrats have majority in the Senate and in the House.  What`s your first piece of big domestic legislation that you move?

SANDERS: I don`t look at it that way, Chris. What I look at is looking at  100 day period and pushing forward that progressive agenda. We`ve got to  raise that minimum wage to a living wage. We have to pass Medicare for  all. We have to transform our energy system. So I don`t see it is one  piece of legislation.

We have enormous crises in this country in terms of income and wealth  inequality, in terms of millions of people living in poverty, in terms of a  shrinking middle class. It`s not just one issue. We need a progressive  agenda. That`s what I`m been campaigning on.

HAYES: Right.

SANDERS: But let me tell you something else for a second -- HAYES: But wait a second. Let me just stop you there for a second. 

You`re a United States Senator who knows your way around the legislative process and you know how important political capital and sequencing are and prioritization. We know that parties come in and they have priorities and those priorities when they come in first, those bills get the best sort of amount of force behind them and then you go later through the administration and they get less and less. That`s just the facts of how 
things work.

SANDERS: Well, I think you`re looking at the past. You`re not looking at  I think what life would be like if I`m going to be elected President of the  United States. There`s going to be a sense of urgency. We are not going  to do things the same old way. We have major crises in this country. And  especially after four years of the disaster of what will be the disaster of  Trump if he lasts four years. We`re going to have to move rapidly in  addressing issue after issue after issue.

And let me mention some other issues I think that I have not been talked  about. We have to pay more attention to rural America. Life expectancy  going down, opioid epidemic, young people leaving their communities. We  have to pay more attention to rural communities. We have to pay attention to the impact that artificial intelligence and robotics is having on our society in driving people out of the jobs they`ve had for years.

So there is an enormous amount of work to be done and we thought are going  to need a president and a Congress to focus on issue after issue to  transform the economic and political life of this country.

HAYES: We`ve talked a lot about domestic issues and you`ve been fairly  active on some foreign policy issues particularly on Yemen where you`ve  worked with some centers across the aisle on the War Powers Resolution  which was successful in the last Congress and might come up again. And  there`s been reporting about sort of your foreign policy staff being filled  out more.

I wonder like is there -- is there a Sanders doctrine, is there a way that  you view American leadership and foreign policy were you to become  president?

SANDERS: In 30 seconds or less right?

HAYES: Exactly -- well 15. I had to get some other stuff.

SANDERS: All right. All right. You got a president today who supports --  literally supports authoritarian regimes all over the world, who supports  governments run by kleptocrats who are billionaires. My vision of American  leadership in the world is leadership which supports democracy, supports  human rights, supports the entire world coming together to address the  planetary crisis of climate change.

And I see huge potential in the world. People all over the world saying  you know what, it affects China, it affects India, it affects the United  States. We`ve got to work together. I see a world beginning to address  massive global income and wealth inequality where today you have a few  hundred people owning more wealth than the bottom half of the world`s  population. I see us addressing the problems of global poverty.

So I see us being the country where the rest of the world looks to the  United States and says thank you America for supporting human rights,  democracy, and economic justice.

HAYES: I want to ask you about socialism. There`s an e-mail that went out  I think in the last few days from the Trump campaign which of course is  already up and running. It`s a fundraising e-mail. It says Bernie Sanders  announced he will be running for president 2020 with a very simple  platform, full-blown socialism, not partial socialism, full-blown  socialism.

You`ve called yourself -- you`ve called yourself a socialist for years.  It`s been a question interestingly I think on the campaign trail. Other  candidates have said they`re not socialist or capitalist. But there`s this  debate that has ensued about what does that mean. A lot of conservatives  have pointed to Venezuela and said food shortages, increasing  authoritarianism is what socialism means and it`s what Bernie Sanders  wants.

What is your definition of socialism? What`s your model for it?

SANDERS: I think that when we look at a modern democratic civilized society, you are looking at economic rights in addition to political freedoms. So right now we have a constitution, you have freedom of speech, 
freedom of religion, etcetera.

I happen to believe that in the year 2019 with all of the wealth around us,  we can create an economy which guarantees health care to all people as a  human right, which guarantees education from childcare well higher  education as a human right, which guarantees the right of people to have  decent and affordable housing which make sure that you`re living in a  community with water that you are drinking and the air that you breathing  is clean.

HAYES: Let me ask --

SANDERS: So economic rights is human rights. That`s what I mean. And by  the way, Chris, it`s not a radical idea.

HAYES: But how is that -- let me ask you this -- right, that`s my  question, right? So what you`re describing is the mixed economy and we`ve  -- you know, there`s a National Health Service in the U.K., there are --  the United States Public Housing.

SANDERS: Right. Of course, of course.

HAYES: We have -- we have public provisions of those goods. Is there  something above that distinguishes your vision from a kind of welfare state  mixed economy?

SANDERS: Well, I should also add that in 1944 this is exactly what  Franklin Delano Roosevelt talked about. He talked about jobs and health  care and education as a human right to be guaranteed by the government.  And what I`m talking about exists in many countries all over the world.  You know, you go to country in Scandinavia, college education is free.  Every other major country on Earth guarantees healthcare to all people as  right.

Most countries have higher minimum wages than we do. So essentially what  we are talking about is making sure that a vibrant democracy, make sure it  guarantees that all of our people can have a decent standard of living and  that we do not have this grotesque level of income and wealth inequality  where three people end up owning more wealth than the bottom half of the  country where a handful of billionaires can spend hundreds of millions of  dollars to buy elections.

That`s what the political revolution is about. That`s what Democratic  Socialism means to me.

HAYES: So I`m going to return to the Venezuela case because it is been so  used by Conservatives in the -- in the U.S. on exactly this. You`ve been  critical of the Maduro regime, I think also critical some of the steps  taken by the Trump administration sort of ratcheting up pressure. But what  is the Bernie Sanders theory of the case for why Venezuela is the way it  is. What went wrong there in what was an avowedly socialist project?

SANDERS: Oh well, I mean, that`s a long story that we can`t -- I don`t  think we have the time to get into. But this is what I do -- will say, and  that is that I think there must be free and fair elections in Venezuela.  The last elections were not free. Second of all, we have got to do  everything0 that we can to provide humanitarian aid along with other  countries so that people do not starve to death.

And thirdly, we need to make certain that the United States does not do  what it has done time and time again in our history and that is get  involved in overthrowing governments in Latin America. We did that in Chile, we did that in Brazil, Guatemala, other countries. We should not be doing that now. The future of Venezuela must rest with the Venezuelan people not the Trump administration.

HAYES: You spoke before about a political revolution, talked about an  ambitious 100-day agenda. One of the kind of bottlenecks for all of that  right now is the House of Congress you call your own the United States  Senate. It has a filibuster which as we know from the history increased  rapidly in its deployment. It`s essentially used as a 60-vote threshold  for almost everything other than a reconciliation and budgeting.

Some people have come out in favor of abolishing the filibuster. Do you  favor abolishing the filibuster?

SANDERS: Well, one of those people is Donald Trump so I think we should be  thoughtful and clear about this is what Trump would like to see. Look,  before we get into that which is a very legitimate question. We need to A,  make sure the Democrats control the United States Senate which is not  guaranteed by any means.

HAYES: No it is not.

SANDERS: And second of all, it`s not good enough to have 51 Democrats or  50Democrats and a Democratic president. It is important to have  progressive Democrats. Because if you think that every Democrat currently  in the United States Senate is going to support a progressive agenda, think  twice, that`s not the case.

HAYES: Right. But isn`t that, even more, the case for 60 votes?

SANDERS: I think what we have got to do -- I mean, you`re asking a legitimate question but I think let`s get first things first. Let`s elect the Democratic Senate. Let`s make sure that as many as possible are Progressives. But this is what I believe. It`s what I said a moment ago. 

We make change when millions of people demand that change. And I believe that when people stand up and fight back, yes, you`re going to have the United States Congress start listening to ordinary Americans rather than wealthy campaign contributors.

HAYES: All right, Senator Bernie Sanders, Senator from Vermont, thanks so  much for taking time tonight. I appreciate it.

SANDERS: My pleasure.

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