MSNBC "The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Lloyd Doggett

Interview

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O`DONNELL:  Joining us now, member of the House Ways and Means Committee, Congressman Lloyd Doggett of Texas.  Congressman Doggett is the senior-most member of the committee who is available for interviews tonight. 
 
And, Congressman, I want you to look back at the exchange we just showed with the treasury secretary and reflect back on what you think his answer means now that Chairman Neal has sent the letter. 
 
DOGGETT:  Well, Lawrence, thank you.  Finally, after two years, six motions that I made that the Republicans covered up for Trump, and now three months into the session, we have the beginning of the beginning.  I think what the treasury secretary was saying in a bit of double talk, mumbo-jumbo was the emphasis on the word "protect."  The emphasis should be on the word "shall" and performing his ministerial duty to provide these returns as required by a near 100-year-old statute of which you`re very permanently familiar and you`ve described it so well tonight. 
 
The secretary, it would appear, and President Trump tonight in his initial comments, he obviously continues to think he`s above the law here as everywhere else, and if he chooses to obstruct the secretary and the IRS from performing their ministerial duty, we need to move forward immediately to seek legal action to get these returns. 
 
O`DONNELL:  Congressman, some reports have referred to the law that controls this as an obscure law.  Which I guess it is to most members of the news media, but for you, a member of the Ways and Means Committee, any member of the Finance Committee, any member of the staff of those committees knows this power exists.  They`ve seen versions of this power used.  When I was in the Senate Finance Committee, service not actually used for any individual the way it is now, any targeted individual, but more for a kind of tax return that the committee was interested in seeing for compliance reasons. 
 
DOGGETT:  Exactly.
 
O`DONNELL:  How does it work? 
 
We would sometimes ask the IRS just for tax returns that are taking a certain kind of deduction, and we didn`t even have to see the names on them, necessarily.  But that power has always been there.  This is the first time we`ve seen it used basically in an aggressive way against a sitting president who is probably very likely to try to resist this in court. 
 
DOGGETT:  Well, this is a president, of course, with a history of questionable tax activities, a president who deviated from other candidates in refusing to disclose his returns.  You have described the statute and the practice and the frequent use of Article 6103 very particularly.  I would bring to your attention, and I know you`re familiar with it, the role that it played with Richard Nixon. 
 
The IRS appraised him in their initial public audit.  Then when we actually got the returns, my predecessors on the committee and yours in finance, it turned out the IRS did a pretty sorry job and Richard Nixon ended up having to pay almost half a million dollars in additional taxes in order to demonstrate that he was not a crook. 
 
O`DONNELL:  And one of the things Chairman Neal pointed out in the informational handout that he gave to the media today along with the letter was that the Senate Finance Committee on confirmations demands tax returns for the people who get confirmed to positions of treasury.  It`s routine that the committee staff there and chairman take a look at tax returns for lower ranking people than the president. 
 
DOGGETT:  Absolutely.  Secretary Mnuchin, other people within the Treasury Department and elsewhere, had to produce tax returns.  Now, while I differ with the chairman about the scope as to time and the breadth of the returns that are requested, I think he`s prepared a very informed request that there is no legal justification in denying this narrow request in producing this six years of returns.  We`ve really, after all this time, just reached the beginning of the beginning. 
 
O`DONNELL:  And we all remember Donald Trump saying on the campaign trail that he would release his tax returns, but there was an audit going on.  We have no evidence that there was actually an audit going on.  Chairman Neal is going find out whether there was an audit. 
 
DOGGETT:  Exactly. 
 
O`DONNELL:  It is traditionally, as you know, for the president and the vice president, to automatically be audited by the IRS, that`s a point the chairman makes in his letter, and one of the things we want to find out is, is that audit actually happening?  Or has he ordered the IRS not to audit him? 
 
DOGGETT:  Well, that`s exactly right.  We need to know about that audit.  We need to know like the Nixon case how well did the IRS do its job?  This is all about confidence in our tax system.  It`s essential Americans have that confidence and part of that is assuring that the most powerful person in the country is complying with our tax laws. 
 
So, I think we should at least hold him to the Nixon standard.  As you know, earlier this year, we approved the For the People Act here in the House.  We want to require this for ten years and all principal businesses of everyone who runs for president.  It`s not aimed at any person or any party, it is designed to ensure integrity in our highest office, something that we`re really short of in the Trump administration. 
 
O`DONNELL:  And, Congressman, talk about what it would mean to turn a tradition, the tradition of voluntary disclosure for presidential candidates and presidents of their tax returns, turn that into a law. 
 
DOGGETT:  Well, I think it confirms the best practice of people of candidates of both parties.  And all we`ve had from President Trump lies and deceits.  We have to get the facts.  I know he`s not a fact-based president or reality-based president, but on this issue, on the administration of our tax laws, how he`s benefited in changes of the tax laws and rulings by his administration, how the IRS is performing its function, those are vital things for the operation of our government and particularly in the jurisdiction of the Ways and Means Committee. 
 
O`DONNELL:  Congressman Doggett, thank you very much for joining us tonight. 
 
DOGGETT:  Thank you, Lawrence.
 
O`DONNELL:  I know you`ve been pushing for the issue of the Trump tax returns longer than anyone else on the committee.  You were doing it in that lonely position of the minority and the Republicans were shutting you up every time you brought it up. 
 
DOGGETT:  Indeed. 
 
O`DONNELL:  And this is a very important night.  We really appreciate you joining us.
 
DOGGETT:  Thank you.  Thank you, Lawrence.

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