MSNBC "The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Lloyd Doggett
Interview
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O`DONNELL: Breaking news tonight. The Trump administration replied to House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Richard Neal`s demand for Donald Trump`s tax returns. And, of course, the Trump administration replied at the last minute. We got the reply tonight at 7:00 p.m. on the day that Chairman Neal set as the deadline for the IRS commissioner to reply to the demand for Donald Trump`s tax returns, the demand from the Ways and Means Committee chairman.
These demands are made under a 1924 law that allows the chairman and only the chairman of the tax writing committees in Congress, the House Ways and Means Committee and the Senate Finance Committee to see any tax returns they choose to examine at anytime. That law is absolute. That law is simple. That law has never been challenged.
But tonight, instead of the IRS commissioner handing over tax returns, Chairman Neal got a letter from the Secretary of the Treasury Steven Mnuchin and the letter underneath a bit of political rhetoric asks for more time. Secretary Mnuchin`s letter said: Given the seriousness of these issues which bear no connection to ordinary tax administration, we have begun consultations with the department of justice to ensure that our response is fully consistent with the law and the Constitution.
Secretary Mnuchin explained why he is responding to a letter that wasn`t sent to him that was sent to the IRS commissioner. Secretary said: I intend to supervise the department`s review of the committee`s request to ensure that taxpayer protections and applicable laws are scrupulously observed consistent with my statutory responsibilities.
Chairman Neal issued a statement tonight saying, quote: I will consult with the counsel and determine the appropriate response to the commissioner in the coming days.
Chairman Neal is not doing it interviews on this subject. And so, we are fortunate tonight to have a senior member of the House Ways and Means Committee who knows Chairman Neil`s thinking. We are joined by Democratic Congressman Lloyd Doggett of Texas, a long-time member of the House Ways and Means Committee.
And, Congressman Doggett, you had been moving -- trying to get the committee to move to get the president`s tax returns back when it was under Republican control, which was one of the great Don Quixote exercises I`ve seen in the House of Representatives. But here we are finally with this response which you and I have had trouble imagining what the response could be other than handing over the tax returns because there`s never been a response like this to any demand by either the chairman of the finance or chairman of the Ways and Means Committee to see tax returns.
REP. LLOYD DOGGETT (D-TX): Well, Lawrence, that`s exactly right. And I really viewed the letter that we got tonight as kind of a fancy repackaging of the arguments the Republicans made over the last two years in blocking my six motions, and particularly of the comments that Secretary Mnuchin made in responding to my questions last month in committee.
You know, I thought you once again broke importance news with your interview of former Secretary Larry Summers. The real question as to why Secretary Mnuchin was sending any letter at all because he wasn`t asked on this. The Internal Revenue Service commissioner according to Secretary Summers` long-standing delegation where we don`t have the political official at the top of the Treasury Department dealing with these individual tax matters.
And so, I see Secretary Mnuchin`s letter as a justification for his interfering with the important work of the IRS commissioner just as Donald Trump seems to be interfering. We`ve got his lawyers at the White House, his personal lawyers, the attorney general, the Justice Department, the IRS lawyers, the treasury lawyers, more lawyers than you can possibly count all to advise on whether shall still means shall.
O`DONNELL: Yes, it`s a simple one-sentence piece of the tax code. It`s one of the -- I mean, Congressman Doggett, you and I have read and you`ve written a lot of this tax code. Much of it is unintelligible to civilians.
This is not one of those. It simply says that the Section 6103 simply says that this information shall be furnished to the chairman -- any information about tax returns and underlying documents involving tax returns to the chairman`s demands. Go ahead.
DOGGETT: Well, exactly. You`ve noted the well-reasoned, well-crafted letter that Chairman Neal sent. And I think the fact that all these lawyers are involved and all this delay and dithering that is occurring raises questions as to why -- and if President Trump is being audited, whether his lawyers are trying to intimidate the Internal Revenue Service into not doing its job, whether the Internal Revenue Service has in mind a blessing to Trump of the type decades ago was given to Richard Nixon and then when the audit actually occurred, it turned out he owed half a million dollars in additional taxes.
We need as a part of our responsibility to the people of the United States that our tax system is being administered fairly for all, including the most powerful person in the country to be able to examine that audit, how it`s being done and we need those tax returns to effectively do our job of accountability.
O`DONNELL: The IRS commissioner was testifying to the Senate Finance Committee today where ranking member Ron Wyden asked him about this situation. And he is aware -- he referred to what we call the delegation order, that is what I learned Monday night from former Treasury Secretary Summers, it`s a formal written delegation in the Treasury Department that delegates all of this to the IRS commissioner.
Let`s listen to Senator Wyden`s exchange with the IRS commissioner today about this.
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SEN. RON WYDEN (D-OR): So, you do agree with me that it is your job and yours alone to respond to Chairman Neal`s request?
CHARLES RETTIG, IRS COMMISSIONER: I`m aware of the delegation order as is Treasury, but you must be aware that we`re a Bureau of Treasury. And the Treasury supervises us.
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O`DONNELL: Yes, we know all that. But you could see there clearly, Congressman, that Commissioner Rettig doesn`t know what to say about this delegation order.
DOGGETT: Well, that`s right. Senator Wyden did a very effective job of examining him today. I think the commissioner knows it`s his responsibility but he has people who are already interfering in that work and the biggest interference appears to be coming directly from the White House.
The president views all these lawyers who have a responsibility to address the public trust as his personal lawyers combined with the personal lawyers influencing this. It`s all about delaying, obstructing as much as possible.
I think this is just another example of President Trump never feeling that he is up to the law the way the rest of us are when his chief of staff said never, yes, never means never. And for Donald Trump, that`s really the watchword of his administration, never accountable, never willing to comply with the law the way other people do.
O`DONNELL: And Congressman, we`ve never been in this posture before. We`ve never seen this law defied or obstructed in any kind of way so --
DOGGETT: Absolutely.
O`DONNELL: So Chairman Neal`s statement tonight was very careful. Obviously, I don`t imagine you know what Chairman Neal`s next step is.
DOGGETT: No, I think he has a number of paths that he can follow. I`m sure that he will take a reasoned approach trying to dot every I, cross every T, comply fully so that there is no question when this actually goes to court if the IRS does not comply with the law, that we`re entitled to get that information.
And as we`ve talked, Lawrence, previously, once we get it, it`s not a matter of being able to display it on your program or in the news media. It is a matter of careful examination by the Joint Tax Committee on which I serve and by the experts there to look at the returns and see what`s there and whether any of this information should be disclosed publicly.
In the meantime, it will be private and everyone looking at it will be subject to criminal penalties were it to be disclosed.
O`DONNELL: Congressman Lloyd Doggett --
DOGGETT: Thank you.
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