NBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Ron Johnson
Interview
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CHUCK TODD:
Let me start with the president's declaration of a national emergency. I'm aware there have been dozens of them since the law was passed in 1976. But by our research and reading and our understanding, this is the first national emergency that has attempted to spend money that Congress specifically said no to. How is that not presidential overreach?
SENATOR RON JOHNSON:
Well, I think your research is probably correct. I think many of us are concerned about this. I think Congress, past Congresses have given any executive, any administration way too much power. And this would be another expansion of that power. That's why you see an awful lot of us concerned about this. Now, the better way to have solved this problem would be for Democrats to support what they supported in the past and give this president funding for better barriers, which we need. We need to secure our border. We need to fix our horribly broken legal and illegal immigration system. And so, you know, hopefully, after this impasse now is over in terms of funding the government, we can sit down on a bipartisan basis and start solving these problems and fix our systems.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, isn't this an issue then for the president? I say this because, Senator, Congress, you know, this is the way it works, right? It's divided government. You came to a compromise. They gave some money. The president himself admitted he could go back and ask for more, which is the normal way of how things work between the executive and the legislative. But he decided he didn't want to wait. Is that an emergency?
SENATOR RON JOHNSON:
Well, again, my question is how much can we actually spend in the remaining eight months of this fiscal year? My preference would've been let's not shut down the government. Let's do this through the legislative process. And let's sit down on a bipartisan basis and let's start fixing all of these problems. And I know my staff probably gave you a chart --
CHUCK TODD:
Yup.
SENATOR RON JOHNSON:
-- of unaccompanied children and family units in this country. You know, this is not a manufactured crisis, Chuck. 120,000 unaccompanied children, family units came into this country in 2014. And President Obama called that a humanitarian crisis. Last year, 145,000 unaccompanied children and people coming in as families. In the first four months of this fiscal year, it's already 120,000 people. We're at 2014 levels just in the first four months of this, this year. So it's a problem. It has to be solved. But it's going to have to be solved on a bipartisan basis. You know, divided government is when you sometimes can do big things. Hopefully, we do big things and fix this.
CHUCK TODD:
Is the president's move unconstitutional in your view?
SENATOR RON JOHNSON:
No, I don't think so. Again, it's certainly the expansion of authority Congress has given past presidents, this president has the same authority. I wish he wouldn't use it in this case. But again, I understand his frustration--
CHUCK TODD:
Where does he have the authority?
SENATOR RON JOHNSON:
Democrats have supported--
CHUCK TODD:
Where does he have the authority on this?
SENATOR RON JOHNSON:
--what he wants to do.
CHUCK TODD:
Where do you believe he has the authority in the Constitution on this?
SENATOR RON JOHNSON:
You know, from what I can see, it probably comes from a number of different pieces of legislation. The National Emergency Act. There are other pockets of money that give him the authority. For example, the Department of Defense to fight drugs. I mean, obviously, putting up better barriers is probably the effort to combat that flow of heroin, for example, that is poisoning our cities. So no, listen, this is a real problem. And it's way more than just a policy crisis. It is a humanitarian crisis. President Obama called that a humanitarian crisis, 2014. We're at that level, just a third, you know, into the year.
CHUCK TODD:
So you believe his use of the National Emergency Act, I want to clarify this, is Constitutional? You believe it will be upheld in the Court? Do you want the Courts to uphold this power?
SENATOR RON JOHNSON:
Listen, I regret that past Congresses have given the president, any president, a lot of its, Congress's constitutional authority. It's done it on tariffs, it's done in this case. It's done in many cases. We should have three co-equal branches. Right now, the presidency is probably the most powerful, and then the Court. And Congress is really diminished. And we should start taking back that Congressional authority. It'd be, it'd return that balance. But that's the way it is. And again, particularly when Congress has given --
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
SENATOR RON JOHNSON:
-- the president authority, it's really when that president's authority is even stronger than just what's written in the Constitution.
CHUCK TODD:
Are you going to vote to disapprove of the president's use of this, of the National Emergency Act when it comes to the Senate? The House is likely to vote on a resolution of disapproval. It'll come to the Senate. Where would you vote on that?
SENATOR RON JOHNSON:
I'm going to take a look at the case the president makes. And I'm also going to take a look at how quickly this money is actually going to be spent, versus what he's going to use. If he's not going to be spending it this fiscal year or very early in the next fiscal year, I would have my doubts. So again, I'm going to take a look at it and I'll, you know, I'll decide when I actually have to vote on it.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you share the concern that other conservatives have that, if this is allowed to become precedent, where a president, thwarted by a Congress that he disagreed with, can end-run Congress this way and declare a national emergency to take appropriated money and spend it anywhere, climate change, guns, you name it?
SENATOR RON JOHNSON:
Absolutely, I share those concerns, which is why we're going to take a very careful look at what he's doing here in this instance. But again, I have to stress, this president has been thwarted for keep -- you know, in his attempt to keep this nation safe and secure, to secure, to secure our borders. Let's face it. If this president can claim a mandate on anything he ran on, it's exactly this issue, better barriers and securing our border. And Congress, and Democrats in Congress have supported this in the past. They just won't support it now because it's President Trump.
CHUCK TODD:
But Senator--
SENATOR RON JOHNSON:
I think it's very regrettable. An easy solution--
CHUCK TODD:
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Senator --
SENATOR RON JOHNSON:
Just have them stop being hypocrites.
CHUCK TODD:
I understand you want to blame Democrats for all of this. But let me ask you this. Republicans controlled the House and the Senate for the first two years of this presidency. Your fellow home state Republican Paul Ryan was speaker of the House. Is this not on, is this not on Congressional Republicans and the president that we're in this situation in the first place?
SENATOR RON JOHNSON:
You said we controlled both chambers. We didn't. We had a majority in the Senate. So you don't control it. We need Democrats to support us. And they've been unified in trying to thwart this president's number one issue in the campaign, which was to secure the border. So no, we didn't have control. We needed Democrats. We never had any cooperation from Democrats, which is regrettable.
CHUCK TODD:
You're in Munich. It's an important security conference. And I also know there was a big moment that honored John McCain during this conference. I want to play something that the late Senator McCain said to me the last time he was in Munich two years ago. Here it is.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN:
They are puzzled and they are concerned. They realize that the lynchpin of the western alliance is the United States of America. And they worry, particularly when they see increased testings of this union that's being conducted by Vladimir Putin as we speak.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
It's my understanding, there are still concerns from European leaders that they're nervous the United States isn't as solid with NATO, isn't as solid with Europe when it comes to Putin as it once was. This is an important, I know you chair an important subcommittee on this issue. Are those concerns still being expressed by our European allies?
SENATOR RON JOHNSON:
Well, let me first say John McCain is missed. His presence is missed. But there's a record number of House members and senators here, over 50. And we're making that point, that we value NATO. We realize NATO has been crucial keeping Europe whole, free and at peace for over 70 years. And it's crucial now in its support in Afghanistan and Iraq, for our forward presence in, you know, really trying to thwart President Putin's aggression into Eastern Ukraine. And so no, we are here supporting NATO. And I think that our European partners and NATO allies are hearing that loud and clear.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Ron Johnson, I appreciate you. I know it's an outdoor street there in Munich. Really appreciate you giving me a few minutes of your time, sir.
SENATOR RON JOHNSON:
Have a good day.
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