CNN "The Situation Room" - Transcript: Interview With Washington Congressman Denny Heck

Interview

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BLITZER: Interesting.

All right, Phil, thank you, Phil Mattingly up on Capitol Hill.

Joining us now, Congressman Denny Heck. He's a Democrat who serves on the House Intelligence Committee.

Congressman, thanks so much for joining us. I want to get to the shutdown in just a moment. Let's begin, though,

what we have just learned about Paul Manafort, the former Trump campaign chairman. If he gave sensitive internal Trump campaign polling data to this Russian, Konstantin Kilimnik, who has ties to Russia intelligence, does that -- do you believe, does that rise to the level of collusion?

REP. DENNY HECK (D), WASHINGTON: Absolutely, Wolf. I don't even know why we're still asking that question.

This is a little bit of coming on a crime scene with a dead body and a bullet hole in it, and standing over it is Paul Manafort with a gun in his hand, and smoke is coming out the barrel.

He colluded, he colluded, he colluded. I think, in fact, the only question left to be answered -- or the only questions left to be answered are, what did the president know and when did he know it, to channel Senator Howard Baker a little bit here, Wolf.

BLITZER: Well, what do you believe?

HECK: We don't know yet.

I'm looking forward to every bit as much as the rest of the folks for Director Mueller's final report.

But I will you what I have told you before. The walls are closing in. Every brick of evidence and information seems to reveal more and more and more that there was a tighter and substantially deep amount of communication between Trump operatives and Russian operatives, with an eye toward the election.

BLITZER: Did you know -- and you're a senior member of the House Intelligence Committee. Did you know about this contact between Paul Manafort and Kilimnik, this Russian? Is this something the House Intelligence Committee learned during its investigation?

HECK: Well, of course, Wolf, if I did know it, I couldn't tell you.

BLITZER: Well, can you give us a hint?

(LAUGHTER)

HECK: No, I'm sorry, sir. I actually take my oath pretty seriously when it comes to nondisclosure.

BLITZER: But now that it's out there, now that it's been revealed, why is it still sensitive for you to share with us whether your committee knew about it?

HECK: Because I don't know what your next question is going to be.

But let me put it this way. I'm not at all surprised.

BLITZER: All right. Well, that's an answer. As you know, Paul Manafort, the former Trump campaign chairman, was a

serious guy in the campaign. Is it plausible, from your perspective, Congressman, that President Trump would be unaware of this kind of conduct during the campaign, sharing sensitive polling information with this Russian?

[18:20:13]

HECK: Well, whether or not he was specifically aware of that particular exchange of information, it is becoming increasingly implausible that he was unaware of the depth and breadth of communication, remembering there were 16 Trump operatives that had contact with Russian operatives.

So, yes in the general, it's increasingly implausible that the president was unaware of it.

BLITZER: We also learned today, Congressman, that that Russian lawyer who met with Paul Manafort and other Trump campaign officials over at Trump Tower in June of 2016 during the campaign, this woman Natalia Veselnitskaya, is much more closely connected the Kremlin than we originally thought.

And now she's been indicted by the U.S. attorney in the Southern District of New York because she secretly worked with Russia to provide false information in a different case stemming back to 2013.

What does that tell you?

HECK: Another brick of evidence and what it is that we suggested earlier, this incredibly tangled and complex web of exchange of information and collusion.

Collusion has been proven at this point. It's a different legal term than conspiracy or coordination. But there's no question that collusion has been committed here. It was committed with the Trump Tower meeting. It was committed with the information that was shared in the way of pulling information. Go right on down the line.

There is no longer any question in any rational person's mind that collusion was committed, period.

BLITZER: So, if collusion was committed, does that suggest to you, you should go ahead, the House Judiciary Committee, with impeachment hearings?

HECK: Collusion, as has been stated often Wolf, is, in and of itself, not a federal crime.

Conspiracy and coordination for foreign interference in our election is. And that's what I am suggesting to you the walls are closing in on with respect to the Trump campaign operation.

BLITZER: Well, are you suggesting it's a conspiracy, but not collusion, or it is collusion and not a conspiracy?

HECK: I'm suggesting that collusion has been demonstrated or proven. Conspiracy has not yet been proven.

BLITZER: And, as you suggested earlier, it's -- we don't know yet if Donald Trump personally was aware of these contacts between Paul Manafort and this Russian.

HECK: Yes.

Wouldn't it be nice, for example, once again, if we could get our hands on the phone records of who it was that Donald Trump Jr. talked to immediately prior to the Trump Tower meeting in the summer of 2016 to see whether or not that was his father?

BLITZER: Well, you're going to be the majority -- you're now the majority in the House Intelligence Committee. Presumably, you will be able to subpoena that kind of information.

Have you spoken to the new chairman of the Intelligence Committee, Democrat Adam Schiff, on how you plan to pursue this information, other information? Will you call in, for example, Paul Manafort to testify?

HECK: We have had the most preliminary of conversations about how we will pursue this and what are the most egregious, outstanding unanswered questions associated with our prematurely truncated investigation last year, last spring.

But you can be completely assured that Chairman Schiff plans to follow up as is appropriate. He plans to follow up, I think, very much so with respect to subpoenaing records relating to some of the money. Follow the money, always.

He also is interested, I think many of us are, in sharing the transcripts with Director Mueller, so that he can determine whether or not, with what Director Mueller knows -- we don't know what Director Mueller knows -- has -- have there been members that came before the congressional committee, the HPSCI committee, and committed perjury?

BLITZER: Congressman Denny Heck, thanks so much for joining us.

HECK: Always. Thank you, sir.

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