MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Chris Coons

Interview

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MADDOW: Chris Coons is the Democratic senator from the great state of  Delaware. He is known for his bipartisan, good faith collegiality with  colleagues of all stripes. He`s known for his civility and for being  calmed and cool and collected at basically all times.

That reputation is what made it all the more striking today to see the hot  fire which Chris Coons responded when news broke today that the president  had fired Attorney General Jeff Sessions and instead installed a White  House loyalist named Matt Whitaker to take over the operations of the  Justice Department and the Mueller investigation, specifically.

He responded online, quote: If there`s any indication that the president  has fired the attorney general and named Mr. Whitaker as acting attorney  general to influence or end special counsel Mueller`s investigation, that  would make today`s action an historic attack on the rule of law. Quote,  that is a red line, which President Trump has been warned not to cross by  Republicans and Democrats alike for months.

Joining us now is Senator Chris Coons from the great state of Delaware,  member of the Senate Judiciary Committee.

Senator Coons, thank you for making time to join us tonight, sir.

SEN. CHRIS COONS (D), DELAWARE: Thank you, Rachel.

MADDOW: You called this action by the president today a red line if this  appointment was made in order to influence or end the special counsel`s  investigation.

Can you tell me what you mean by that?

COONS: That`s right. If he forced out Attorney General Jeff Sessions and  replaced him not with Rod Rosenstein, the deputy attorney general, but  instead with a loyalist, Matthew Whitaker, in order to have Acting Attorney  General Whitaker squeeze or end the investigation by Robert Mueller, that  would be an obstruction of justice action. And there have been some strong  words by senators, both Republican and Democrat, for months, cautioning  President Trump against interfering with the Mueller investigation.

Many senators have said, if the president is innocent, it`s in his best  interest to have this investigation go all the way to its conclusion.  There were some more statements today, by Senator-elect Mitt Romney, by  Senator Lamar Alexander, by Senator Susan Collins, by many Democrats, as  well, saying the president should not interfere. But if, as your previous  guest indicated, there`s a decisive step taken to curtail the scope and the  reach, the funding or the support of the Mueller investigation, that would  be a decisive moment and we would need to match these words with action.

I`m calling on the Senate to take up and vote on and pass the bipartisan  bill that I introduced last year, with three other senators. It`s already  passed the Senate Judiciary Committee by a strong bipartisan vote of 14-7.  It`s ready for action on the floor. And this strikes me as the sort of  moment that should precipitate bipartisan action in the Senate.

MADDOW: The kind of worry that you`re describing there, that action should  be taken to stop the Mueller investigation, how would you know if that had  happened? I mean, one of the things that has become a hallmark of this  investigation is that the special counsel`s office is incredibly tight- lipped. We know them by their public actions and not by their words. If  there was action taken, even today already within the Justice Department, to kybosh some element of the investigation, or to divert it or slow something down, how would we know?

COONS: That`s part of my concern here, Rachel, is that we don`t have any  direct way to know that. We`d only find out about it if there were people  directly connected with the Mueller probe who allowed that to be shared.  And as you mentioned, they`ve been extraordinarily tight-lipped and have  controlled information from getting outside that probe.

Robert Mueller is a decorated combat veteran. He`s a life-long Republican.  He`s a by the book federal law enforcement leader. He`s run a very tight  ship and he hasn`t had leaks, unlike virtually every previous independent  investigation like this.

So, we might not know, and we might not be able to act in time, to defend  that investigation.

I`ll just remind you, the only reason we`re having this conversation is  because President Trump fired FBI Director Jim Comey, and then went on  television and said he did so in order to stop the Russia probe. That`s  what led to the appointment of a special counsel. It was broadly supported  in a bipartisan way last year. This is likely going to be the kind of  moment when we have to put up or shut up, and it`s going to call for  actions by senators of both parties.

MADDOW: If Mr. Whitaker has been told or is soon advised by ethics lawyers  at the Justice Department that he cannot ethically oversee this  investigation, his public statements criticizing the investigation and, in  fact, declare his bias in a way that he can`t ethically oversee it, if he  defies that advice, or if we come to learn that he received that advice and  ignored it, does the Judiciary Committee or any other element of the U.S.  government have any way to correct that?

COONS: Not that I`m aware of. I mean, we could certainly call acting  Attorney General Whitaker in front of the Judiciary Committee, I think he  should appear in front of us to answer questions about his intentions with  regard to the Mueller probe and other issues. We have an oversight  responsibility where there`s a new acting attorney general. I think it  would be completely appropriate for Chairman Grassley to invite him to come  over and answer some of these questions.

But in the minority, Democrats on the committee can`t compel him to come  and testify. We can simply raise the issue, press the issue. One of my  concerns here is that as we move into the next Congress, our margin in the  Senate may get worse. We`ve lost probably two seats, maybe three in the  Senate in terms of the Democrat/Republican balance. And that may affect  our ability to bring together a bipartisan group that will compel action  even further.

MADDOW: Senator Chris Coons of Delaware, a member of the Senate Judiciary  Committee. Sir, thank you. I know it`s a very busy time. Thanks for  being with us tonight.

COONS: Thank you, Rachel.

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