NBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Lindsey Graham
Interview
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CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, who is likely to be the next head of the Judiciary Committee next year. Senator Graham, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Thank you very much.
CHUCK TODD:
And I don't mean to get ahead of things on Judiciary. I know that that is not a done deal yet. But it is likely.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Not yet.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me start with something that Senator McConnell said there at the end of our piece, that -- the president, you know despite all of the noise, the president hasn't threatened to shut it down. He has, quite a bit on Twitter, wanted it shut down, has sort of said, in the ether, he would like it to have -- be shut down. Are you confident the president or the acting attorney general is not going to shut down this probe?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Yeah, I'm very confident. It would be a disaster for the Republican Party for the Mueller investigation to be terminated or shut down or played with this close to the end. Let's see what he finds. I can understand why the president doesn't like the investigation. He feels wronged by it. I remember the Clinton-Ken Starr episode pretty well. This is sort of standard practice. But I think most Republicans on Capitol Hill, and Democrats, believe that Mr. Mueller should be allowed to do his job. And I have no indication he's going to be interfered with at all.
CHUCK TODD:
I know you have said you would support this bill, this Mueller, essentially, the Muller protection bill.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
YEAH.
CHUCK TODD:
I think you voted for it in committee --
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
-- in the Judiciary. Democrats have talked about connecting it to the spending bill and using their votes in the House that will be needed as leverage. Do you support that move?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
I don't -- not really but I'll -- I think Mitch should bring it to the floor, and let's vote on it. Jeff Flake says he's not going to support judges, until we get a vote on the Mueller protection bill, which I wrote, by the way. Some people think it's unconstitutional. I feel good about it. So I think the best thing the Senate could do is just bring it to the floor and vote on it.
CHUCK TODD:
Why won't the senator do that? Why won't Senator McConnell do that? He seems pretty adamant. We've read -- we've had our own reporting about this, it's pretty, that Senator Flake and Senator McConnell got into it a little bit. You were probably in the room.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
What can you tell us about why Senator McConnell is, is the roadblock here?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Well, he thinks it's unconstitutional. He thinks it's not necessary. Again, I helped draft the bill with Senator Booker. I think it's constitutional, and I'd like to vote on it. But having said all that, I don't see any indication at all that the Mueller probe's going to be interfered with by Mr. Whitaker or President Trump. But he's the majority leader, not me. But if it were up to me, we'd be voting on the bill and see where the votes are at.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think the gambit by Democrats to connect it to the, to the spending bill, threatening a shutdown, will change Senator McConnell's mind?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Oh, I don't know. Once you give in to that kind of stuff, it never ends. It might actually be counterproductive. Because as majority leader, they've got 1,000 demands. And if they link all of them to shutting down the government, it's probably counterproductive to threaten that, I would think.
CHUCK TODD:
You met, this week, with the new acting attorney general.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
A couple things, you said that it would be a mistake, a disaster for Republicans, earlier in our interview here, that if they even messed with it at all. Are you confident that the new acting attorney general is letting the probe go? He's not, he's not going to touch funding, not going to interfere at all?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Yeah, I am. He said that he's going to support the regular order process. Under the law, special counsels report to the deputy attorney general and any recommendations are sent up to the attorney general, in this case, the acting attorney general. He said he's going to let regular order prevail here. In other words, he's not going to reach out and try to stop the investigation.
CHUCK TODD:
So he's letting --
(OVER TALK)
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
He's not going to try to cut off funding.
CHUCK TODD:
Does this mean Rod Rosenstein still oversees Mueller?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
He's in the chain of command. The initial report comes to the deputy attorney general, whatever the request is by the special counsel. And that goes up to the acting attorney general for final approval. He's in the chain of command. But the final decision making would be by Mr. Whitaker.
CHUCK TODD:
After meeting with him, if the president nominated him as a permanent replacement, could you imagine supporting him?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Too early to tell. You know, he was U.S. attorney for five and a half years. He was Sessions' deputy for a year and a half. He said some things that would be probably problematic to be confirmed. But having said that, I was very impressed with his attitude, his professionalism. And he's got a very solid resume. So I would encourage the president to pick somebody fairly soon, so we can have a permanent attorney general going into the first part of next year.
CHUCK TODD:
Does that mean not Mr. Whitaker, when you say you'd like him to nominate someone very soon?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
No, I mean, that's up to the president. You asked me about Mr. Whitaker. I have nothing against him. I don't know if he's the best choice. You hear about Mr. Barr, former attorney general. That's a good choice. There are a lot of good names out there. I would just encourage the president to start 2019 as soon as we can, with a new attorney general that he has confidence in, and we can get confirmed.
CHUCK TODD:
The fact that you name dropped the former attorney general, Mr. Barr, does that mean that's your preference, that's your first choice?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
No. It means I read the paper, and his name's been in it a lot. (laughter) It won't be me. Let's end with that. It's not going to be me. He's got a lot of good choices. I'm not one of them.
CHUCK TODD:
I take your point on that one. Let me ask you about, you have, you have indicated an openness to a second special counsel. You're now likely going to be head of the Judiciary Committee. Why jump to a second special counsel, when it comes to the F.B.I.'s handling of all of these investigations? Why can't you do it first? Why can't it be done in Congress, before you decide you need a special counsel?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Well, the one thing I'm not suggesting is that we go back and try to re-prosecute Secretary Clinton. That's not what I'm suggesting. I am suggesting that the people in the Department of Justice and F.B.I., in the early stages of the Russia investigation, the dossier was used to get a FISA warrant that I think was very inappropriate. There seems to be some political bias about how the Clinton email investigation was handled. We need to get to the bottom of all that. But I'm not suggesting we prosecute her. And let me take a shot at this. And maybe you're right. Maybe the committee can do it. But I'll let you know more early next year. But we're going to definitely look at this stuff.
CHUCK TODD:
Speaking of the committee, let's be frank. It feels as if Senators Grassley and Feinstein, the relationship broke apart, okay? And we can come up with a lot of theories as to why. What are you going to do to repair the damage that was done during the Kavanaugh hearings of the Judiciary Committee?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Well, the Kavanaugh hearings were, I think, did a lot of damage to the committee and to the judiciary. And we've got to start all over. The good thing about elections, Chuck, it's a restart. It's a reset of democracy. We've got a new group of people coming in. It's a fresh start. I like Dianne. I don't think she did anything inappropriate, individually, in the Kavanaugh hearing. I will work with her the best I can. Prison and sentencing reform. I know you're going to ask me about that.
CHUCK TODD:
I am. We'll get to that, I promise.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Well, I think there's something, I know, I think there's something we can do in the lame duck here. But I promised Dianne and all the Democrats on the committee to try to find a way to do something on immigration. There are a lot of things we could do on that committee in a bipartisan fashion.
CHUCK TODD:
What it really means is you're in the middle of a lot of stuff. And in fact, I do have a lot to get to here. I want to go to Saudi Arabia here for a minute. We, here at NBC News, have confirmed that the C.I.A. has concluded that the crown prince himself, Mohammed bin Salman, ordered the assassination of the Washington Post journalist and columnist Jamal Khashoggi. Do you accept that assessment?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
I haven't been briefed. But I believed, from day one, that 15 people, 18, whatever the number was, they don't get on two airplanes, go to Turkey, and chop a guy up in the consulate, who's a critic of the crown prince, without the crown prince having known about it and sanctioned it. If you know anything about Saudi Arabia and anything about MBS, the fact that he didn't know about it is impossible for me to believe. If he is going to be the face and the voice of Saudi Arabia, going forward, I think the kingdom will have a hard time on the world stage. They're an important ally. But when it comes to the crown prince, he's irrational. He's unhinged. And I think he's done a lot of damage to the relationship between the United States and Saudi Arabia. And I have no intention of working with him ever again.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, well, the president seems hesitant to name MBS, which is what he's affectionately known, using Mohammed bin Salman, there for viewers. But I noticed he was not on the sanctions list. Is that a mistake?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Well, I want to see what the C.I.A. says. But I'm working with Senator Menendez to, to invoke the Magnitsky Act to all concerned. And we're not going to make these 15 Saudi security agents the, the fall guy here. I'm going to do whatever I can to place blame where I believe it lies. I'm going to put it at the feet of the crown prince, who has been a destructive force in the Mideast. He embargoed Qatar without telling anybody. This war in Yemen's gotten completely out of control. He put the prime minister of Lebanon under house arrest. Clearly, this guy's a wrecking ball, when it comes to the Mideast and a relationship with the United States. And I hate to say that, because I had a lot of hope for him for being the reformer that Saudi Arabia needs. But that ship has sailed, as far as Lindsey Graham's concerned.
CHUCK TODD:
Why do you think the president and Jared Kushner, his son-in-law, who I know became quite close to MBS, why are they so insistent on trying to, trying to salvage MBS here?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Well, I think it's an important relationship. And I'm not telling Saudi Arabia who to make crown prince or who to put in charge of their country. It's up to them. I am trying to tell them and the world that, when it comes to the crown prince that exists today, I think he has been a -- he has showed a lack of appreciation for the relationship.
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
He's stepped all over our values. He's put us in a box. And I'll leave it up to the president to find out how to handle Saudi Arabia from the executive-branch side. From the legislative-branch side, we're going to do as much as we can, as hard as we can, to send a signal to the world, "This is not the way we expect an ally to act." What happened in Turkey --
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
-- violates every norm of civilized society. And it will not stand. And if John McCain were alive today, he'd be the first one saying that.
CHUCK TODD:
The crown prince's brother is, of course, the ambassador to the United States. His phone call to Khashoggi is one of the pieces of evidence used to conclude that, yes, this was an order from, from MBS. Should be be welcomed back to the United States ever again, as an ambassador?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
No.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, fair enough. Let me move to criminal justice reform. I had a feeling that was -- that would be your answer to that question. Let me--
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
There's a theme in my answers here, I think.
CHUCK TODD:
Yes, oh, yes. No, no, no. I think it's pretty crystal clear where you stand on this. Let me ask you about the criminal justice reform bill. Because--
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Sure.
CHUCK TODD:
Politico wrote this about Tom Cotton's opposition to it, noting this: "On Thursday, he stepped up his public potshots at what he's called a, quote, 'jailbreak proposal.' It's a counter-campaign that one fellow senator believes came at the request of Majority Leader Mitch McConnell." Do you believe the majority leader is trying to quietly kill this bill in the lame-duck?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
No, not really. Because Tom Cotton's had this view from day one. What we're talking about is, basically, creating a new sentencing system that will give African American male and Hispanic male detainees a chance to get out of jail, earning their way out of jail. They've been in jail 30 and 40 years for three nonviolent, drug-related offenses, and change our sentencing system to make it more humane and more productive. Tom has been on the other side of this. There's 80 votes for this. It's the most-important bipartisan piece of legislation in the Congress today. It would make prisons a better place to get people the skills they need to not go back to prison. And it will also change the way we put people in jail. The average sentence in America is eight times higher than anywhere else in the world. For nonviolent offenders, we've got people in jail for 30 and 40 years. Some of them need to get out of jail and go back to work. And I'm urging Mitch McConnell, put this bill on the floor. If you put it on the floor, we'll get 80 votes. We'll get most Republicans and almost all Democrats. And let's do it before the end of the year. And the president's behind it. So Mr. President, pick up the phone and call the Republican leadership of the House and the Senate and say, "We still run this place." Bring this bill to the floor. Senator Cotton can have his say. And we'll vote him down.
CHUCK TODD:
But this, you believe, the president is going to have to start lobbying Mitch McConnell.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Yes.
CHUCK TODD:
Because you guys have done everything you could. And you haven't been able to get him to budge.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Yeah. You know what? The country needs to heal here. And one way to bring this country together, after the midterms, is to focus on something that matters. I never dreamed that this many Republicans and Democrats would embrace sentencing reform and prison reform. Three strikes, and you're out has not worked. Now is the time to get it right. Let's start 2019 on a positive note. I'm urging Senator McConnell to bring the bill to the floor of the Senate. It would get 80 votes. Mr. President, pick up the phone and push the republican leadership. The Republicans are the problem here, not the Democrats. Cory Booker's been very helpful in getting us to yes. There's been some compromises to keep it from being a jailbreak. So I'm ready to vote.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Lindsey Graham, you had your caffeine this morning, sir. Much appreciated. Always fun to have you on to have you share your views. Thank you, sir. Have a good Thanksgiving.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Thank you, sir.
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