MSNBC "All in with Chris Hayes" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Chris Murphy

Interview

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HAYES: Joining me now Senator Chris Murphy, Democrat from Connecticut. Do  you agree with your colleagues there?

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D), CONNECTICUT: I do agree but of course, I would  argue that there are lots of reasons that we should be pressing the pause  button. We have not been given all of the documents that we need in order  to evaluate Kavanaugh`s candidacy and there seems to be a reason why  Republicans are holding back some of the most important documents from his  time in the White House. But clearly, there are some really big questions  that need to be answered. At the very least we need Kavanaugh to be open  with us about what he thinks about the ability of a president to be  indicted and whether he believes that presidents have to answer subpoenas.

The most likely question that is going to come to the Supreme Court in the  midst of a constitutional crisis would be over an argument as to whether  Donald Trump needs to testify before Mueller. Obviously, after yesterday`s  revelations, it`s increasingly unlikely that Trump`s lawyers want him to  get into a position where he could perjure himself given the fact that he  seems to do it on a regular basis in front of the American people. That  question of whether a president has to testify seems to be one that  Kavanaugh has to answer and I would hope Republicans and Democrats would  agree he has to answer that question affirmatively before he gets  confirmed.

HAYES: There`s a broader question here to me which is just about the sort  of how you take the facts that we`re learning and the questions, the third  profound questions about the President`s legitimacy to be quite frank and  deal with being a member of the Senate. But at what -- is there a fact  pattern at which everything should stop?

MURPHY: Yes, so I think that`s a really important question, Chris, one  that I`m grappling with in real time because you know, it is somewhat of an  arbitrary distinction to say that the Supreme Court hearing process should  stop but the president continues to be able to go on appointing other  judges, running the Armed Forces, making all sorts of decisions regarding  the U.S. legal system. You know, ultimately the founding fathers gave  Congress a power that is the power of impeachment if they believe that an  executive has gotten to the point where you can no longer function.

And so I guess I do worry about Congress deciding that the President has  lost legitimacy absent an impeachment conversation. And so -- and so I --  you know, listen we will get a report from Mueller, and when we do we`ll  have that conversation. But before that, I think it`s a difficult thing to  decide.

HAYES: Let me just ask you this. There are people who say, and I think  they have a decent argument, that what was alleged what was sworn to in a  federal court yesterday and seems to be endorsed by the U.S. Attorney`s  Office Southern District is itself an impeachable offense, the president  directing his underling to commit a federal crime in furtherance of  covering up something so that he can be elected. Are they right?

MURPHY: Well, I think it`s important for us to have in front of us the  evidence that leads the prosecutor to that decision right? Now, we have  Cohen`s testimony but we also may have other evidence whether it be  documents or audio tapes to that effect as well. And so, I think the reason why some of us are you know, punting on this question a little bit today is because well, we take the indictment at face value. We also think 
that we need all of the evidence before us.

HAYES: You`re also punting on it because you`re worried about the  politics. I mean, isn`t that the subtext here?

MURPHY: Well, I think there`s a good reason for why we have wanted Mueller  to provide us with a report because when you consider something as serious  as impeachment, you want to have all of the facts in front of you.  Republicans are wrong to say that just because this didn`t indict him on  the Russia question it`s not serious but I do think that it`s important for  us to have all of the facts in front of us.

And I think Mueller frankly, Chris, has to think at this point about giving  us some preliminary findings. I mean, there`s nothing that stops Mueller  from saying here`s what I know right now and I`m going to continue to work  on other things and then we can assess that preliminary report.

HAYES: You know, that`s -- I haven`t heard anyone call for that but from a  transparency standpoint, I`m a journalist like that -- with all of us  operating with some big thing in a black box that we can`t see just seems  almost maddening at this point because there`s a subset of facts that are  extremely important to know what happened one way or the other.

MURPHY: Right. And listen, we -- there`s clear -- there`s nothing in the  in the statute underlying Mueller`s work that requires him to wait until  the finality of his process to give us some information. And I think what  happened yesterday probably compels him to show some cards, not all but to  show some cards to the extent that there you know, is going to be a  conversation about what the proper redress is before Congress. And I think  that that need will increase because as we were talking about it`s going to  be I think really hard for Congress to decide what functions of the  executive are legitimate going forward and what are illegitimate.

HAYES: The President tweeted this morning about Paul Manafort, has some  extremely kind words, feel very badly for Paul Manafort and his wonderful  family. Justice took a 12-year-old tax case among other things, applied  tremendous pressure on him and unlike Michael Cohen, he refused to break,  makeup stories in order to get a deal, such respect for a brave. Many  people interpreted that as dangling a pardon. What signals have to be sent  from your colleagues on Congress to the president that a pardon for  Manafort is a red line?

MURPHY: So -- and I think Republicans need to say to Trump is effectively  what they said on the Mueller investigation. Republicans gave some pretty  clear signals to Trump about six months ago that the red line was the  firing of Mueller and I think that`s in part why Mueller`s investigation  still precedes. They`ve got to say the same thing about a pardon to  Manafort. And of course, I think that tweet makes it very clear to  everyone what the reason for that pardon would be Manafort`s success in  refusing to cooperate. He effectively admitted in that tweet why we would  -- he would pardon him. So I haven`t heard that definitively from  Republicans today and I think what we know is that unless Republicans draw  that line, then you know, Trump is going to take advantage of it.

HAYES: All right, Senator Chris Murphy, thanks for making some time tonight.

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