CNN Late Edition - Transcript

CNN Late Edition - Transcript
Sunday, October 2, 2005

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

BLITZER: Welcome back to "Late Edition."

This special programming note: A one-hour edition of "Reliable Sources" will air today at 1 p.m. eastern. That's about 90 minutes now. Stay tuned for that. Joining us now to talk about Iraq, the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina and much more are two key members of the U.S. House Homeland Security Committee: in his home state of Connecticut, Republican Congressman Chris Shays; and in his home state of Mississippi, the committee's ranking Democrat, Bennie Thompson.

Congressmen, welcome back to "Late Edition." Thanks to both of you for joining us.

Congressman Shays, let me begin with you. Before we get to Katrina and other issues, what's your reaction to what we just heard from General Casey? Are you upbeat or downbeat, looking down the road in Iraq?

REP. CHRIS SHAYS, (R) CONNECTICUT: Well, I've been there nine times; I'm going back for my tenth time next week. And I've gotten to see the ebb and flow. And if Americans realize that in April of 2003, we were at a certain level and now we're up or down a little bit -- but what they don't realize is we went into a huge hole. And when you realize how deep that hole was, you would see significant progress.

We left a huge void when we disbanded their army, their police, their government, their border patrol. Now we're training their troops. We're training their border patrol. They have a government functioning. They have over 100,000 police. Every month they're more experienced. And they're making progress -- significant progress.

BLITZER: Do you agree, Congressman Thompson?

REP. BENNIE THOMPSON, (D) MISSISSIPPI: Well, I think what you see in the latest polls, Wolf, is clearly the public now finally deciding for itself that there are some problems.

We were told we would go into Iraq. It was not as difficult a situation, even though we were going alone. But what we see now is almost 2,000 of our men and women killed, thousands hurt, and still no real sign of stability, other than government that's been propped up. So I think what you see in the minds of Americans is that whether or not going there was indeed the best thing, or whether or not we should have brought other allies along.

BLITZER: I'm going to move on in a moment, but a quick follow-up question to you, Congressman Shays.

At the end of the interview, I asked General Casey if he thought that those nearly 2,000 American troops might have died in vain. He said, not yet. He's not ready to come up with that conclusion yet. Yet those words, "not yet," they're still ringing in my ear.

At what point would this entire U.S. military operation have been in vain?

SHAYS: Well, let me just say, they ring in my ears as well. But when we had our war of independence against Great Britain and we became these United States, we needed a miracle. The Iraqis don't need a miracle. What you don't talk about, generally, in the press is, while there is the bombing -- and by the way, if the press moved to Al Gut, it would be in Al Gut, because the bombing is for our consumption, not the Iraqis. They can deal with this bombing. They've dealt with it for 30 years.

But the bottom line is, there is a constitutional convention. They missed a week, and we said a failure. We had the Articles of Confederation. We have a Constitution of these United States that said a black person was three-fifths a person and a slave. I think they're doing quite well.

And I guess I just want to make this point to you. Polls are not the way you look at war. Historians said during the Civil War, the Revolutionary War, one-third didn't know there was a war and couldn't have cared. One-third supported Great Britain, and only one-third supported the war. And in this case, going to the Civil War, Lincoln lost 10,000 Americans a month -- a month. We've lost 2,000 in two and a half years.

BLITZER: That's still a lot, 2,000 troops.

Congressman Thompson, let me let you wrap this segment up. As you look down the road, what do you see?

THOMPSON: Well, I see some difficult decisions that we're going to have to make -- financially, what this war is going to cost. I hear people in my area saying, why are we building schools and hospitals in Iraq? Because now we have that need in the Gulf Coast of our country.

Every reason that we went to war we've found not to be that reason. We still have not brought in allies to support our effort. Why are we there? I see our men and women coming back and saying, you know, "They don't want us there." I'm committed to the war on terrorism, like most of the members in Congress. But we need the truth told to us, and I think that's what you're hearing from the American people. They just want to know the truth.

SHAYS: Wolf, can I disagree with one point? To say they don't want us there I think is just really not accurate. When I ask Iraqis what their biggest fear is, they say, "That you might leave us." They watch CNN and they realize Americans are not as supportive as they were, and they're fearful we may leave. And in some cases they're trying to hedge their bets. They need time.

BLITZER: All right. Let's move on to another huge story that erupted here in Washington this past week: the forced resignation, if you will, of Tom DeLay as the House majority leader after being indicted by a Texas prosecutor.

Congressman Shays, listen to what the Democratic leader in the House of Representatives, the minority leader, Nancy Pelosi, said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) U.S. REPRESENTATIVE NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): Every step of the way, this Republican caucus and almost every member of it has supported the leadership and the ethical -- the low ethical standard of Tom DeLay. Certainly all of the leadership and all of the members share responsibility.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: He's saying today, Tom DeLay, on another television network, he's suggesting that, for all practical purposes, he's still going to be in charge. He's giving up the title, but he's still going to play a very active role.

What do you say?

SHAYS: Well, he will play an active role as a member. I mean, he has so many contacts, so many relationships. But he's no longer the majority leader. He's lost his office. He's lost his staff. And he's now basically a rank-and-file member who has a lot of friends and will still have influence.

But, you know, Nancy Pelosi is having a field day right now. I realize that. This administration needs to resolve some issues, and this Congress needs to resolve some issues. We got elected basically by saying we would live by higher moral standard, and I don't think recently we have.

BLITZER: What do you say, Congressman Thompson? Is this a field day for the Democrats? There are plenty of problems the Democrats have as well.

THOMPSON: Well, there's no question Tom DeLay is damaged goods. If he continues to assert himself as a leader in the Republican Party and if the party continues to embrace him, that can only hurt the party. We've had an ethical lapse on his part and some of the other people.

And I think we're only a good institution as we police ourselves. So if the Republicans continue to allow the former majority leader to go out and become a poster child for everything that's bad, then it's to their discredit.

The real benefit comes to Democrats. And I hope they continue to let him go out and say just what he's saying.

BLITZER: When I interviewed Tom DeLay, Chris Shays, earlier in the week he suggested that he had evidence, although he declined to release it, evidence of a direct link between the Democratic leaders in the House, Nancy Pelosi and Rahm Emanuel, a congressman from Illinois, and the prosecutor in Texas, Ronnie Earle.

Do you believe that there is such a direct conspiracy, a direct link between the prosecutor and the Democrats in the House?

SHAYS: Well, I think it's very possible. I mean, he had impaneled more than one grand jury before he got an indictment. And I'm not a lawyer, but lawyers tell me prosecutors using the grand jury can indict a tomato.

But Tom's problem isn't just this. It's continual acts that border and go sometimes beyond the ethical edge. They may not be illegal, but he's always pushing that ethical edge to the limit.

BLITZER: Well, you're a moderate Republican, Chris Shays, and you've always been elected in your district in Connecticut as a moderate Republican. Do you feel comfortable with Tom DeLay as your leader?

SHAYS: No.

BLITZER: Well, that's a straight answer from Chris Shays.

Bennie Thompson, let me put some numbers on the screen for you, some recent poll numbers and get your reaction.

"How are things going in the United States today?" -- this according to the new Newsweek poll. Thirty-one percent say they're satisfied; 61 percent of the American public say they're dissatisfied.

Another number, "How is President Bush handling his job as president of the United States?" Forty percent approve of the way he's doing it; 53 percent disapprove of the way he's doing it.

"How is Congress handling its job?" In this new Newsweek poll, only 32 percent of the American public believe Congress is doing a good job, 32 percent; 56 percent disapprove.

The American public seems to be losing confidence in the way the federal government is dealing across the board.

THOMPSON: Well, there's no question, Wolf, when you look at it. Our deficit is the worst it's ever been. We continue to give tax breaks to the wealthiest people in America. We refuse to do a prescription drug benefit plan for the neediest of Americans.

And so when they see all of this, and you ask them, you say, "Well, what's the problem?" Clearly, we have a Republican in the White House. We have Republicans who are running Congress; Republicans who are running the Senate.

Democrats are the loyal opposition, but where we've gotten over the last five years is with the help and the support of the Republicans who are leading things.

BLITZER: All right. Let me let Congressman Shays respond to that.

Go ahead.

SHAYS: Well, 50 percent of the American people -- 5 percent of the American people are paying 50 percent of the taxes. And 50 percent of the American people are paying 96 percent of the taxes.

It's hard to give a tax cut to 50 percent of the American people who pay less than 4 percent of the taxes. That's one of the challenges we have.

But the bottom line is this: I think that this Congress has got to recognize what got it into power. And that was that we would be different, that we would have an agenda that we were proud of, that we would live by a higher ethical standard, and we need to get our roots back. And we need to do it real quick.

BLITZER: All right. Congressmen, stand by.

We're going to take a quick break and continue our discussion with Congressmen Thompson and Shays. We'll move on and talk about Hurricane Katrina -- what happened right, what happened wrong.

Also ahead, on the scene in Louisiana's fifth largest parish. We'll talk live with the president of St. Tammany parish about how recovery efforts are actually going on right now. Is FEMA helping or hurting, as far as his parish is concerned?

"Late Edition" continues right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED NEW ORLEANS RESIDENT: This whole thing to me was more -- it started with the disaster in leadership. And that's why the whole disaster of the mistreatment of the displaced people happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: A New Orleans resident offering her opinion about how the government's response to Hurricane Katrina has been working out.

Welcome back to "Late Edition."

We're continuing our conversation with the Republican House Homeland Security member Chris Shays of Connecticut and the committee's top Democrat, Bennie Thompson of Mississippi.

What's the current situation, Congressman Thompson, right now? Are you satisfied with the way the federal government, including FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, are dealing with Mississippi and Louisiana, the other areas of this hurricane's ravaged Gulf Coast?

THOMPSON: Well, Wolf, it's a work in progress. I think we got off to such a slow start, we're still playing catch-up.

I'm still talking to local elected officials who have yet to see someone from FEMA. They're putting a state office in my district. They're still trying to staff it up.

So many of the things that you would have expected that would have been prepositioned and already planned, we're just getting there. So consequently, the public is suffering. BLITZER: What about that, Congressman Shays? What's your bottom-line assessment right now more than a month after Hurricane Katrina hit?

SHAYS: Well, I agree with Bennie's answer.

But I also want to say, this was a storm of biblical proportion, in the sense that we know no other storm like this this. When we traveled down there, I mean, it was incredible what we saw in New Orleans. But then when we flew by helicopter for an hour along the coast of Mississippi, as far as the eye could see, all we saw was just sticks. I don't even know what they're going to do with all the debris.

So I'm amazed, frankly, that we didn't lose tens of thousands of people. So some folks in Mississippi must have done a heck of a lot of things right to get their people out and to protect so many.

The bottom line with FEMA is, it's a dysfunctional agency. It knows how to say "no" more than it knows how to say "yes." There are legions of examples of inept actions by this department.

But we can start from the beginning and we can say that in New Orleans, the mayor totally failed. The governor of Louisiana totally failed. And then FEMA failed. I mean, all three just fell apart.

BLITZER: Michael Brown, the former FEMA director who resigned under pressure, was before your committee, Congressman Shays, and he offered several explanations for what went wrong. Listen to these excerpts we put together.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: My biggest mistake was not recognizing by Saturday that Louisiana was dysfunctional. I very strongly, personally regret that I was unable to persuade Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin to sit down, get over their differences, and work together.

FEMA doesn't own fire trucks. We don't own ambulances. We don't own search-and-rescue equipment. What could FEMA have done in terms of the evacuation? What could FEMA have done in terms of communications, law enforcement? Those are not FEMA roles. FEMA doesn't evacuate communities.

I guess you want me to be the superhero that is going to step in there and suddenly take everybody out of New Orleans.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: I want you to respond to all of that, but do it briefly, Congressman Shays. Then I'll let Congressman Thompson respond. Because there's a suggestion that he's being made a scapegoat. But go ahead and respond to what you heard during the committee hearing this week, Congressman Shays.

SHAYS: First off, 90 percent of the response is local and state. So the burden is clear on local and state governments. But when local and state governments can't meet the need, the federal government and FEMA is supposed to step in.

We had a hurricane tabletop exercise a year before that predicted almost everything that happened. And the director simply, Director Brown simply ignored that. He should have known months in advance what need to be done, and he chose not to do it. And then he just stood and watched it all unfold.

BLITZER: Several members, Congressman Thompson, did respond like Chris Shays during that hearing, and they really berated Michael Brown. Listen to this excerpt.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)

SHAYS: That kind of, you know, look in the lights like a deer tells me that you weren't capable to do the job.

(UNKNOWN): You folks fell on your face. You get an F-minus in my book.

U.S. REPRESENTATIVE KAY GRANGER (R-TX): I don't know how you can sleep at night. You lost the battle.

(END VIDEO CLIPS)

BLITZER: Is that criticism of Michael Brown fair, or does it, as some suggest, leave other administration officials, federal government officials off the hook by making him seem like such an incompetent federal official?

THOMPSON: Well, Wolf, there's no question, Michael Brown wasn't up to the task. He demonstrated that at every level. Unfortunately, the plan was in place; we just didn't have anyone in a leadership position to execute it.

Unfortunately, he's still not accepting responsibility for his failure during Katrina. Unfortunately, the people of Louisiana suffered because the plan did not get implemented. It was an incident of national significance, the first time we'd ever had it. But we didn't carry out what the plan called for.

Our federal assets clearly come in the absence of state and local assets. We didn't have them prepositioned enough to respond until four or five days after the hurricane. We knew the hurricane was coming, so we had a job, FEMA, DHS, as an entity, to put things together, and they didn't do it.

Michael Brown failed. Chris was absolutely right. He couldn't even describe his coordinating role during the hurricane. If the man at the top who's charged with that responsibility can't pull it off, then clearly he's failed.

BLITZER: We're almost out of time, Chris Shays, but I want you to respond to that story that appeared in the New York Times on Monday. Among other things, it pointed out this: "More than 80 percent of the $1.5 billion in contracts signed by FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, alone were awarded without bidding or with limited competition."

Doesn't that open up the system to some irregularities?

SHAYS: Absolutely. But if we're going to have bids, we need to make sure they can happen quickly, otherwise nothing happens.

BLITZER: One of those areas of bids involves these Carnival Cruise Lines that have been brought in, $236 million agreement with Carnival Cruise Lines. And it seems to be costing the taxpayers more to put people on those cruise ships than it would if they were actually going on a real cruise.

SHAYS: If you're asking me, I'm outraged by so many things that FEMA's done. And that's high on my list.

BLITZER: What about that, Congressman Thompson?

THOMPSON: Well, we've already asked the inspector general to look at some specific cases of this sole-source no-bidding effort that's taking place. But clearly, again, we could have had things in place, to be certain services before the hurricane. We didn't have to go pick existing contracts and do it.

We should have had the foresight to see that hurricanes happen every year, and that we need to have competition. And when we don't have competition, we have just what we have occurring now, contracts that are absolutely exorbitant.

BLITZER: Bennie Thompson, Chris Shays, both of you, thanks very much for joining us on "Late Edition." We'll leave it there.

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