MSNBC "All in with Chris Hayes" - Transcript:
Interview
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HAYES: And joining me now, Senator Chris Murphy is a Democrat from Connecticut and a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Letting Russia back into the what would be G8, you think that`s a good idea?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D), CONNECTICUT: Well, this is a pretty high ROI for Russian interference in the 2016 American election. They are getting a big return on their investment in that they have done absolutely nothing to deserve to come back into the G8 in particular. They have not moved one inch inside Ukraine. They got kicked out because the G7 thought it was probably a pretty important principle to tell countries inside our club that you can`t invade other countries. And that having been unchanged, they don`t deserve to be back inside but they paid a lot of money to try to get President Trump into office and they`re getting a return on their investment today.
HAYES: What do you -- what do you think -- I mean what is your mental model or theory of that kind of thing? Like do you think this is just quid pro quo right in front of everybody`s eyes?
MURPHY: You know, who knows. I guess we`re all going to wait to see what`s in the Mueller report and we`ll have a better idea of it at that point. Listen, he`s gone both ways on Russia. There are things that he has done that has been incredibly soft. There`s a couple moments where you thought that he might be getting his act together in particular when he decided to transfer some weapons to the Ukrainians. But by and large, Russia has gotten everything they wanted.
And of course what they want in addition to being back inside these clubs is for the U.S.-European club to break up. And so, you know, this is a particularly great 24 hours for Russia because not only is Trump saying that we should just ignore what they`re doing in Ukraine and let them back in but also this division between the United States and Europe that continues to grow bigger and bigger. You know, that essentially predicts that our set of sanctions against Russia aren`t going to be able to hold together either and that`s good news for the Kremlin too.
HAYES: What is your -- what is your assessment about where things are with respect to the other G7 countries right now as we enter this summit?
MURPHY: What so is interesting is I was talking to our European allies and traveling through Europe in 2017, you know they were freaking out. You know, their partner was literally walking away from the table. They didn`t know how to deal with him. 2018 is different. Our European partners are just moving on. They`re deciding to make different plans. For instance, they`ve set up a defense initiative inside Europe where they`re going to start doing planning and procurement outside of NATO because they`re just not confident that Trump is going to stay inside NATO.
And similarly, Macron made it very clear that if the United States doesn`t want to be in, they`ll just make it the G6. They`ll start making economic plans and long-term strategic plans without us and so that`s what I think`s happening inside Europe today is that they are just making decisions to do things without the United States.
That`s bad for our economy, that`s bad for our national security, that`s great for countries like Russia.
HAYES: Do you think this is temporary? I mean, the big question to me is, is this a temper tantrum or even if you give them the benefit of the doubt a sort of clever negotiating tactic you know, he`s going to blow things up
and then they`ll come to some tariff agreement on dairy with Canada and pose for a smiling photo-op. Like what`s your sense of how real the rift is?
MURPHY: No, I think it`s -- I think it`s real and for the duration of the Trump administration, it`s permanent.
HAYES: Really?
MURPHY: Yes, you know, I think -- that`s why I spoke to what the Europeans are actually doing. So the Europeans are not just launching tweets, they are actually setting up new entities that are designed to go around the United States. They are doing trade deals with other countries besides the United States to hedge their bets. So they are betting that this disruption will last the entirety of the Trump administration. And I think they`re probably making a smart bet.
HAYES: What`s the tip -- to someone that says well fine, let him do it, I mean I think it`s sometimes hard to -- when we talk about sort of the post- world War two order and all these international institutions, the U.S. being at the center of it, yadda, yadda, yadda, it could all feel kind of airy, and abstract and remote. I mean, what do you say to someone who says hey let them do whatever they want. You know, he`s standing up tough for us or even if they think the President is acting poorly like what`s it matter either way?
MURPHY: Well, I mean let`s think about that in two ways. First, let`s think about it vis-a-vis Russia. So as our unified resistance to Russia`s invasion of Ukraine starts to atrophy and that`s what`s happening right now, it will be really hard to keep the sanctions together if we are at war with each other like this. Then that`s a message to all sorts of other autocrats and would-be autocrats that they can start to erase borders without any consequence.
Second, let`s think about the real threats to the United States and that continues to be a terrorist threat that frankly is not likely to come straight from Syria, it`s likely to come through Europe. And so our counterterrorism operation and our communication with European countries is probably the most set of -- the most important set of relationships to actually get good information to keep us safe. And so as European law enforcement agencies are taking readouts from their governments that the United States just isn`t interested in cooperating any longer, that actually makes us less safe in terms of that threat. So there are real practical consequences for the world and for us as this relationship starts to fall apart at the seams.
HAYES: All right, Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut, thanks for making some time.
MURPHY: Thanks, Chris.
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