CNN "The Situation Room" - Transcript: Interview With Congressman Adam Kinzinger

Interview

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BLITZER: Great reporting from both of you. Gloria, thanks to you. Really, really appreciate. You're going to be back later.

Joining us right now, Congressman Denny Heck. He's a Democrat. He serves on the House Intelligence Committee.

Congressman, thanks for joining us.

So, first of all, what's your reaction to this proposal from the Trump legal team? You just heard Gloria Borger break the story for an interview, but only about certain topics.

REP. DENNY HECK (D), WASHINGTON: Yes, I don't have a lot of confidence that the president is ever going to sit down with Director Mueller's team whatsoever, Wolf.

As a matter of fact, I think the chances of that happening are zero, or near zero.

BLITZER: Why do you say that?

HECK: Because I think, before that would happen, the president's political team, the president's legal team, they would lash him to the chair to prevent him from going into that interview room, because they would be afraid that he would compromise himself, that he would perjure himself.

So I think it's far-fetched at best that he would ever actually sit down to an open-ended interview.

BLITZER: But let me just press -- let me just press you, Congressman. He says he did nothing wrong, no collusion, no obstruction. If he has nothing to hide, why not sit down and talk about it?

HECK: Yes, good question to put to him, right, Wolf.

BLITZER: But you think he's not -- it's not going to happen.

[18:10:01]

HECK: No, I have never thought it was going to happen, actually.

BLITZER: So what will Robert Mueller and his team do?

HECK: Well, they're obviously doing it, and they're doing it with some regularity. Right? The fact of the matter is the House Intelligence Committee shut down

the investigation into Russian interference way too prematurely. And if we didn't need any more evidence of that, in just the last week, we have of course had two revelations, namely that Donald Trump Jr. met with yet another meeting, in addition to the June Trump Tower meeting, with people who were offering dirt on Hillary Clinton, as it were.

And then, secondly, the revelation that Michael Cohen's business partner has, in effect, turned state's evidence. We're going to continue to be treated to these revelations in the months ahead. That's not going to stop.

It is as predictable as the president's continuing effort at deception and deflection and distraction by things like investigate the investigators that he pulled out in the last 10 days.

Both of these things are going to continue into the future, until such time as Director Mueller reaches the conclusion of his investigation.

BLITZER: So, how significant is this -- this plea agreement that this associate, this business associate of Michael Cohen, Evgeny Freidman, has now reached agreement with state prosecutors in New York that he will cooperate and avoid any prison time at all?

HECK: So, Wolf, I want to bring you back to something that I proposed on your network not that long ago, namely, that we construct a Michael Cohen index of one to 100, where one represents he's facing one year in jail, and 100 represents he's facing 100 years in jail.

And at what point do you think that he flips? Obviously, what's going to happen here is that Mr. Freidman is going to provide state's evidence that's going to squeeze Mr. Cohen. And so where up the Cohen index does that put him?

And at what point does he flip? For my evaluation or my assessment, I think it's about 15 years, including good time. When he hits somewhere between 10 and 15 years, he's going to take a real hard look at himself and his future and the number of years he has left in his life and the number of good earning years he has left in his life.

And he's going to make a decision about just how tough he can be standing by his guy, President Trump, who, by the way, has not stood by him.

BLITZER: Let's get to another sensitive issue while I have you, Congressman.

The president says that if there were spies in his campaign, it would be unprecedented in the history of our country. And now this meeting with intelligence officials, members of Congress, Republicans-only, scheduled for Thursday at the White House.

So do you have concerns about this meeting, first of all?

HECK: Well, I'm going to go back to what I said earlier. This is the continuing campaign of distraction, deflection and

deception. The fact of the matter is, everybody involved, you, me, all the rest of us who want to get at the truth, are going to play Whac-A-Mole with these serious revelations or allegations on their part, which, if you just look back over the last year, none of them have proved to be valid.

They kind of peter out over time, as the facts don't bear them up, and then they're onto the next one. And then we play Whac-A-Mole with whatever that is.

This is a political campaign on the part of the president and his team. This is not a legal campaign on his part. He is trying to galvanize and coalesce the Republican base, such that if Director Mueller ever gets to the point where he recommends charges be filed that rise to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors -- and we all know what that means in constitutional terms -- then he can still count on his base to stand by him.

It's a political operation. It's not a legal defense.

BLITZER: As you know, your chairman, Devin Nunes, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, he's going to be going over to the White House on Thursday to see these highly classified documents, together with another couple of his Republican colleagues, once again, no Democrats invited.

The White House says the Democrats didn't ask to come to this meeting, that's why they weren't invited.

But do you believe these Republicans have a right to see these highly classified documents?

HECK: Actually, Wolf, what I think is that we ought to respect the process that we have around here.

We have procedures relating to what we call the Gang of Eight, which is two people from each caucus in both chambers, that have access to this extremely high-level classified information. I think we should respect that process.

But they have not been respecting the process whatsoever over the last year. I wouldn't expect them to begin now, because, again, this is a part of a political campaign.

BLITZER: But should Democrats be part of this meeting at the White House on Thursday?

HECK: I think that Adam Schiff should have access to this information and should make the determination and the evaluation, in accordance with our established procedures, as to how broadly that should be shared, in cooperation with the other members of the Gang of Eight.

BLITZER: As you know, the chairman, Devin Nunes, has chased, he's promoted a lot of these allegations against the FBI and the Justice Department. [18:15:01]

First, it was that President Obama wiretapped President Trump. Then it was improper unmasking, as it was called. Then it was FISA, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, abuse. Now it's this confidential source that is infiltrating the Trump campaign.

Have you seen any facts to back up these theories?

HECK: Zip. Zero. Nada.

Again, this is Whac-A-Mole, Wolf. This is -- but, in a larger sense, I guess what I would like to say is, it would be nice, I yearn for, indeed, I literally pray that we could get back to the point where all of us associated with this process in the congressional branch would put country above party, would put our nation's security above these political considerations, because there is a bona fide and legitimate and deep concern here relevant -- or related to our national security.

We have a check and balance responsibility under the Constitution.

And when I raised my right hand and take my oath of office at the beginning of the term, I took that exceedingly seriously. And I wish Chairman Nunes would too, sir.

BLITZER: So what's the overall impact of all of these allegations?

HECK: Nothing. It's distraction, deflection.

And it doesn't matter, because it is a political campaign. It is not a matter of a legal defense. I don't think it is going to deter Robert Mueller in the slightest. I don't think it ever has. I don't think it's changed his due diligence, his professionalism, his trajectory whatsoever.

He's after the truth, full stop, period. And all of this campaigning on their part, all the spinning, all of the propaganda, all the disinformation, doesn't affect his behavior whatsoever.

BLITZER: Some of your Republican colleagues, they're using this as another opportunity to push for a second counsel investigation. They say an investigation by the inspector general by the Department of Justice simply isn't enough. What do you make of that?

HECK: I make that it's bizarre. I feel like I have fallen into Alice through the looking glass. Things are getting curiouser and curiouser.

It's not only unprecedented. It's deeply unfortunate. The fact of the matter is that Director Mueller, as several Republicans -- I will remind you, Wolf, this is not a pure partisan play. Several Republicans have said that Director Mueller ought to be allowed to finish his work.

BLITZER: President Trump today refused to say if he has confidence in the deputy attorney general, Rod Rosenstein. What was your reaction when you heard him asked -- he was asked that

question by a reporter. He didn't want to talk about it, because he was sitting next to the visiting president of South Korea.

HECK: Well, can I remind you as well, Wolf, that it was, what, almost a year ago that the president's own counsel at the White House threatened to quit if President Trump proceeded to fire the personnel involved here.

He had to be told, the president had to be told by his own legal counsel at the White House, if you do that, I walk, because that is not the right thing to do.

And all we have seen in the ensuing year is a continuing playing out of that threat and the intimidation, leading his own homeland secretary, frankly, I think, to offer an extremely skewed perspective on the investigation, which I trust and pray that she knows better than.

BLITZER: All right, Congressman Denny Heck, thanks so much for joining us.

HECK: You're welcome, sir.

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