MSNBC Hardball - Transcript

MSNBC Hardball - Transcript
Thursday, September 15, 2005

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MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

Watching the heart-wrenching images of Hurricane Katrina victims, especially those who sought refuge in the New Orleans Convention Center, it was hard not to notice nearly everyone was African-American. On this program, we have talked about the vulnerabilities that Katrina exposed in our disaster relief system. Did it also expose a racial divide in this country?

Well, an NBC/"Wall Street Journal" poll we just got yesterday asked if the Bush administration would have moved with greater urgency if the affected areas had been mostly white suburban communities, rather than inner-city, mostly African-American communities. The results show a stark racial divide in thinking and observation: 70 percent of blacks-that's seven out of 10 African-Americans-think race was a factor in the lack of urgency. Nearly an equal number of whites say race was not a factor.

I'm now visiting with Congressman Bennie Thompson. He's a Democrat of Mississippi whose district was devastated by Hurricane Katrina.

Congressman Thompson, does that number surprise you, that whites saw it differently, they didn't see racial prejudice in the slow reaction, and that black Americans did?

REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D), MISSISSIPPI: Well, no, it doesn't. Chris, to be honest with you, I'm not surprised at all.

MATTHEWS: Well, why do you think whites see it differently? Let's try to pin it on somebody here? Are the whites in denial?

THOMPSON: Well, I think it's partially not wanting to believe that our government would do anyone like that. And so, I think they are giving this administration the benefit of the doubt.

Some people in America see it more as a class system, rather than race. But there's no question...

MATTHEWS: Well, let me ask you, Congressman, if it was a lot of Southern white people, poor people, even, people of the same class, if you will, as the people there, but they were white, instead of African-American on television, do you think the administration would have moved faster?

THOMPSON: I don't. I think, clearly, this system failed.

We didn't have the leadership at the top. The president didn't provide the people to run the organizations necessary to get the job done, and we just had the meltdown here with Hurricane Katrina.

MATTHEWS: What about the fact that two-thirds of government, the local government in New Orleans, the mayor, Mayor Nagin, the governor, Governor Blanco, they are all Democrats? Two-thirds of government in this case are Democrat-run. How come they don't get some of the blame?

THOMPSON: Well, they do. But, clearly, in this time, given our standard for disaster preparedness in this country, the federal government is the ultimate responsibility of an agency to get things done. We have a national disaster plan.

We had an incident of national significance declared. That was a federal responsibility to move all the assets into the Louisiana area to make sure that we get the job done. And this government failed.

MATTHEWS: Would you have been upset if the government had been very aggressive, the federal government, and had come into New Orleans and said, get out of the way, Mr. Mayor; we're getting all the people out of here; you don't seem to understand the urgency of the situation; or going to the governor and say, we're federalizing the Guard; we are coming in here?

Wouldn't that have offended you in the other direction?

THOMPSON: If the protocol was followed from this incident of national significance, consistent with the national plan, this is the job of the federal government, to go in when state and local governments can't get the job done.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

THOMPSON: So, if our government did that, did it in a timely manner and saved lives, then it was a job well done.

MATTHEWS: But I understand that the FEMA people in Washington, not to defend them-they haven't defended themselves very well-they kept calling the governor of Louisiana, not your state, but the governor of Louisiana, and said, what do you want? What do you want? What do you want?

And she says, I will get back to you. She never got back to them.

That is what they say. There was never a specific request.

THOMPSON: Well, Chris, but that's-but, Chris, that's not the standard.

We have a national plan that says you have certain things you can do. We monitored this hurricane. We knew what was required. We should have prepositioned our assets to make sure that we could go in immediately following this hurricane. We didn't do that. So, we can't blame everything on the state of Louisiana and its local officials. There's a federal responsibility in this also.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about the way governments work together. Now we have learned that politics isn't like student council. It's not who is popular. It's who can get the job done.

Do you think we need somebody, a boss down there in that part of the country, to make sure that nobody can claim red-tape problems, that somebody says-you talked about protocol, but doesn't there have to be somebody to say, we have got to get this job done? Do you need a leader, like a Colin Powell?

THOMPSON: Well...

MATTHEWS: Or I don't know who else could do it, somebody else with national prestige to come in there and say, I am going to be the guy that cuts the red tape?

THOMPSON: Well, we need someone at the Department of Homeland Security that can get the job done.

We failed. We had the standard already there. We didn't have the leadership.

(CROSSTALK)

THOMPSON: And it showed during this hurricane.

What we have to have, Chris, is people in organizations who can get the job done. And the president failed to put people in that organization who can get the job done.

MATTHEWS: Let me go to-hold-hold with us, Congressman. Thank you for being on, but stay with us for a second, if you can, sir.

Congressman Bobby Jindal is a Republican of Louisiana. He joins us now by phone.

Bobby, thanks for joining us.

Do you think the people that have been transported to Texas should come home?

REP. BOBBY JINDAL ®, LOUISIANA: Absolutely.

I think, if we are going to bring them home, we have got to create jobs, so they have opportunities to come home to. We want every single person to come back to the greater New Orleans area to help us rebuild a better region.

MATTHEWS: There isn't some Republican strategy to move 100,000 people or Democrats out of the start, so that you have got a-they have got a-your party has a better chance of winning that state?

JINDAL: You know, our biggest challenge-I ran for governor two years ago. The big-my top priority was to make sure that we not only kept people in Louisiana, but we attracted people back.

Louisiana is one of the only Southern states that's lost more people moving out than moving in for the last five, 10 or 15 years. I have been arguing publicly for years that we cannot improve our quality of life unless we have the opportunity for all of our people, black, white, Republican, Democrat, whatever, to stay at home to pursue their dreams.

So, I'm passionate about wanting to create opportunities for everybody to come back. But it's important, as we rebuild the streets, the buildings, the infrastructure, we have got to build jobs. What I'm worried about is the people in Texas and other states that were generous enough to allow them to come in, if they find good jobs, if their kid is going to good schools, I think-I think every one of those people wants to come home.

But if we don't give them an opportunity, it is going to be hard to convince them to come home.

MATTHEWS: Governor Blanco, who defeated you, I believe, for governor of-is accused never really making a clear request to the federal government for help, that she was not returning phone calls. She never-she said, give me all the help you can, but never said what she needed. Is that going to be an issue if you run against her again?

JINDAL: Well, I'm not even thinking about elections or polls.

I think all the finger-pointing, the blame can happen later. You know, the state says the feds didn't respond quickly enough. The feds said the state didn't ask early enough. I think it's ridiculous. Who cares?

At this point, the important thing is that we don't replicate that red tape and bureaucracy moving forward. I strongly believe-I said early on, after the hurricane, somebody clearly needs to be in charge. And I believe that about the redevelopment effort as well. We need somebody who is accountable, who is going to be responsible.

MATTHEWS: Right.

JINDAL: Ideally somebody in a background in a private sector with logistical experience.

Clearly, the local people have to make the final decisions. We are the ones that are going to live with the city, live with the state for years to come. But we cannot repeat this confusion about the states and feds pointing fingers at each other. We can't repeat this kind of division of responsibility going forward.

I also think quite-that when the military got involved, when thousands of boots were put on the ground, the situation improved dramatically because of a unified chain of command.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Congressman, I saw that firsthand.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: I saw that firsthand, Congressman.

When the-when the National Guard and the uniformed 82nd came in there, the looting stopped. The people felt calm. The police had backup. They had support in rescuing people from houses. But it is a shame, isn't it, Congressman, that you have to rely on the military for what is really a civilian responsibility, isn't it?

JINDAL: Well, you know, there are things, there are aspects of the military that hopefully we can copy in civilian organizations.

Unfortunately, the state and federal bureaucracies didn't have the unified chain of command. They didn't have the kind of attitude that says get the job done.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

JINDAL: Worry about permission later.

Those-you're right. Those are traits that are common in the military. Hopefully, they're not unique to the military.

MATTHEWS: I hope so.

JINDAL: Well-run organizations, private and public, display those characteristics.

And you are absolutely right, because the response next time-and, God forbid, there likely will be another manmade or natural tragedy, devastation, visited upon our country-we have got to be better prepared. And whatever-whether it's state and local or whether it's federal agencies...

MATTHEWS: OK.

JINDAL: ... whatever the name, I don't-you know, it doesn't really matter at some point whether it's FEMA or the name is different. We have got to have a better, more robust, more coordinated response. What happened this time is intolerable. We cannot repeat this kind of response ever again.

MATTHEWS: Congressman, thank you very much, U.S. Congressman Bobby Jindal, who is from Louisiana.

And, Congressman Bennie Thompson, thank you, sir, Mr. Thompson, for holding on there from Mississippi.

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