CNN "The Situation Room" - Transcript: Interview With Washington Congressman Denny Heck
Interview
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BLITZER: Clearly more to come. Jim Acosta, thanks very much for that report.
Joining us now, Democratic Congressman Denny Heck. He's a member of the House Intelligence Committee.
Congressman, thanks for joining us.
REP. DENNY HECK (D), WASHINGTON: You're welcome.
BLITZER: How significant is this Trump campaign ally Ted Malloch's role in this investigation?
HECK: Well, what I would say about the last several days or couple of weeks on the whole Mueller investigation is that we appear to be getting closer and closer.
Bob Mueller appears to be closing in on this. It no longer is the case where all we are talking about are the financial improprieties and the money laundering allegations against Paul Manafort. We now have, count them, three individuals who were campaign aides to then candidate Trump, Mr. Papadopoulos, General Flynn and Rick Gates, each of whom have reached plea bargain deals.
And you have got to believe they are singing like birds. And even since then, of course, we have had the George Nader development and now the Ted Malloch development.
The bottom line is, it appears and feels as though Bob Mueller is closing in on the central element here --
BLITZER: Of this collusion.
HECK: -- which is on the issue of coordination and collusion, no longer just money laundering, but the issue of collusion and coordination with Russians or Russian national cutouts on the matter of interference in the 2016 election.
BLITZER: In his statement, Malloch implied that the FBI detained him for defending President Trump. He's writing a book accusing what he calls the so-called deep state of making up this Russia dossier to destroy Donald Trump.
What do you make of that?
HECK: He's a Roger Stone acolyte. Of course, he's going to say anything he can to help sell his book. Nothing he would say would surprise me. And I wouldn't receive it with much credibility whatsoever.
He is a propaganda machine and, frankly, every word that comes out of his mouth is propaganda.
BLITZER: The fact that they questioned him for an hour at Boston's Logan International Airport, the FBI, they took, confiscated his cell phone, they want to go through it clearly, his documents, and now -- and at the end, they gave him a subpoena to appear before a federal grand jury here in Washington in two weeks.
What does that say to you?
HECK: Well, I think the more interesting part there isn't the subpoena. It's that they had legal access to his cell phone.
You have to believe there was a legal predicate that enabled them to do that. And with Bob Mueller, the only conclusion you can make is, he was after something and he knew what he was after. But, of course, we won't know for some time.
BLITZER: Did your committee know about this guy and any role he may have had?
HECK: We don't reveal what goes on within the committee and the deliberations associated with the Mueller investigation, the closure of which is pending, as we all now know through open sources, but we don't talk about that.
BLITZER: Well, can you at least tell us if you were surprised when you heard about these developments that he was detained in Boston?
HECK: Yes, I was.
BLITZER: You were surprised. All right, that's interesting in and of itself.
And you suspect collusion was the suspect, alleged collusion was the subject that the FBI was really interested in, the FBI agents working with Mueller's team, as opposed to money laundering or other issues?
HECK: I do.
And as I have said to you before on your program, Wolf, I don't think this is a case of alleged collusion. I think collusion has been hiding in plain sight. I don't think it's even debatable.
How else can you describe the infamous meeting in Trump Tower? How else can you describe the contacts and communication between Trump campaign operatives and WikiLeaks? That is collusion. That is a textbook definition of collusion.
BLITZER: In contrast, Devin Nunes, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, and other Republican members, they say in the 14 months or so they have been looking into all of this, they concluded they saw no evidence of conclusion. To them, you say?
HECK: Well, Wolf, here was their methodology for making that conclusion.
When people came before the committee, they would ask them, did you engage in collusion, conspiracy and coordination? Did you observe collusion, coordination, conspiracy? And when they said, oh, no, I never did that, they said, oh, OK, we believe you.
That's no way to conduct an investigation. If we were serious about this, we would proceed with what Ranking Member Schiff has requested, which is subpoenaing the documents that are associated and that could prove or disprove the assertions by some of these people.
[18:15:01]
Having additional witnesses back in that we have not yet had an opportunity to interview, that would be a serious interview. Simply asking somebody who is, as it were, a person of interest if they were intent or guilty, and when they say innocent, you take them at their word, that does not constitute an investigation.
BLITZER: Well, Devin Nunes, the chairman, has wrapped up your committee's work. So, none of that presumably is going to happen.
Let's get to another sensitive issue, Congressman, while I have you. Do you believe this extradited Russian hacker, Yevgeniy Nikulin, extradited from the Czech Republic to the United States in recent days could have information on Russia's role in the 2016 election and do you want to hear from him as well?
HECK: So, if there is any possibility that he does have that information, then it is worth pursuing.
But I want to be very clear about this, Wolf. Bob Mueller indicted 13 Russian hackers. And insofar as that went, good and fine.
But let's be very clear about this. That's a bunch of 23-year-old kids operating in a windowless room doing harm to America during its 2016 election.
The real -- the central question here is, how is it that we change Russia's behavior? Because, since the 2016 election, they have not abated. They interfered in France. They interfered in Germany. As we speak, Wolf, they are interfering in Mexico. If we really want
to change Russia's behavior, then what we have to do is levy the sanctions that Congress adopted on a aggregated vote of 517-5 last summer against the oligarchs. That's where you put the squeeze on them.
You make it hurt his oligarch friends. You freeze their assets. You prohibit them traveling in the U.S. You prohibit them accessing certain banking services around the world. You get them feeling the pinch, going to Vladimir Putin and saying, there's got to be another way, because this is costing us a lot of money. That's the course we ought to take.
BLITZER: Congressman Denny Heck, thanks so much for joining us.
HECK: You're welcome, sir.
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