CNN "The Situation Room" - Transcript: Interview With Delaware Senator Chris Coons

Interview

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BLITZER: Yes, the Dutch lawyer is awaiting sentencing and they have put all of this information into some of the documents have that have now been released publicly. Thanks very much, Sara, for that report.

Joining us now, Senator Chris Coons. He's a Democrat who serves on the Judiciary and Foreign Relations Committee.

Senator, thanks so much for joining us.

SEN. CHRIS COONS (D), DELAWARE: Thank you, Wolf. Always good to be with you.

BLITZER: All right, so let me get your immediate reaction to the news, the breaking news that President Trump is replacing his Veterans Affairs secretary, David Shulkin, with his White House physician, Ronny Jackson.

COONS: Well, this is just the latest in the abrupt exits from Trump's Cabinet. I have had the chance to meet and worker with VA -- former VA

Secretary Shulkin a number of times over the last few years. I found him to be competent and a tireless advocate for veterans. But, obviously, it is the president's choice who will serve in his Cabinet.

I don't know the White House physician. I look forward to learning more from confirmation hearings. But I will remind you, over just the last few weeks, we have seen the national security adviser, the secretary of state dismissed abruptly on Twitter, in the case of Secretary of State Tillerson, in a way that was personally humiliating.

It is concerning to me that the president is increasingly seeming to manage his Cabinet more like this is a reality TV show than like it is a serious leadership effort on behalf of the interest of the United States.

BLITZER: Yes, lots of changes among the senior staff, including Gary Cohn, who was the head of the National Economic Council. He's now gone as well.

Let me ask you about this "New York Times" report that if the president were to pardon Flynn or Paul Manafort, he was floating that idea. At least his lawyer, John Dowd, was floating that idea to their respective lawyers -- would you view that potentially as obstruction of justice?

COONS: Well, Wolf, that would really depend on under what circumstances that was offered.

If there was an offer of a pardon in order to induce those two individuals, Manafort and Flynn, to refuse to cooperate with the special counsel, I think that would be important evidence of a corrupt purpose, of an intent to try and obstruct an ongoing investigation.

The president does have a fairly unlimited pardon power. There has never been an attempt by a president to pardon himself. That is something that's an unresolved question.

And I think it would have to be part of a larger investigation into obstruction of justice, but we already know that that's what special counsel Robert Mueller is, in part, investigating, is a number of efforts by the president to impede the investigation by special counsel Mueller.

So if, as reported in "The New York Times," this was something offered to these two in order to induce them to refuse to cooperate with the special counsel, I do think that would add more substance to the obstruction charges.

BLITZER: Yes, there's obviously a lot of unanswered questions. A lot more information. We all need to learn about that.

On the issue of Rick Gates, he was the deputy campaign chairman, as you know. The notion now that we have learned that he had some contacts with Russian intelligence, a Russian intelligence officer during the course of the presidential campaign, some are suggesting it looked like attempted collusion, if not collusion.

[18:10:15]

What are your thoughts?

COONS: Well, I think this is why we should continue with the Senate Judiciary Committee's investigation and the Senate Intelligence Committee's investigation.

There have just in the last few days been a number of tantalizing developments that suggest that either Cambridge Analytica and Facebook may have been involved in stripping information from 50 million Americans and making that available to a firm that also claimed to have some role in the social media campaign of the Trump campaign, and then this latest report about the deputy campaign manager for Donald Trump allegedly having contacts with Russian intelligence.

I'm struck that the House committee has abandoned its investigation, when they haven't interviewed any of these or a number of other important witnesses. And it's my hope that the Senate Intelligence Committee will continue with its investigation.

I am very much looking forward to the testimony in front of the Senate on April 10 of Mark Zuckerberg from Facebook and a number of other social media executives. I think it is critical that we get a better understanding of how social media may have been misused by Cambridge Analytica and how that may have influenced our 2016 election.

BLITZER: By attacking the special counsel, Robert Mueller, by name, has President Trump given the green light to his allies out there to undercut the special counsel's investigation more aggressively?

COONS: Well, that's been a major development recently, Wolf.

The president has for months insisted that this entire investigation is nothing but a witch-hunt and has previous to this week failed to really stand up to a number of Vladimir Putin's aggressive actions. I commend the president for expelling 60 Russian diplomats this week.

I do think there are stronger actions that should be taken. But, very recently, President Trump has taken to personally and directly challenging Robert Mueller. I do think that is sending a green light to his allies to go after and to undermine the reputation of the special counsel and to raise more questions about the FBI and about how the FISA court warrants were initially issued.

In the end, I do hear from Republicans and Democrats in the Senate a commitment to ensure that special counsel Mueller is able to get to the bottom of all of this and he is able to carry forward his investigation without interference from the White House.

BLITZER: Well, do you believe the president potentially is laying the groundwork right now to fire Mueller?

COONS: Well, I think the president would like nothing more than to fire Mueller. In fact, reporting in "The New York Times" suggests that, back in January, he was determined to fire Mueller and was only dissuaded from doing so when his White House counsel, Don McGahn, threatened to resign if he proceeded.

I think it's something the president would very much like to do, and he is only being held back from doing so by getting input from his legal team and from a number of advisers, both in the White House and on Capitol Hill, who are making it clear to him that that would cross a serious red line and would invite significant action by Congress in response.

BLITZER: What sort of response, Senator, have you and Republican Senator Thom Tillis of North Carolina received on your legislation, your bill to protect the special counsel?

COONS: Well, I think it's critical that we move that bill forward.

It had a hearing last fall. I am convinced that the bill is constitutional. Thom Tillis, Senator Tillis of North Carolina, and I are working to try to get a markup of that bill. But there are many senators who have said to me and who have said publicly that although they think it's critical that the special counsel be allowed to complete his investigation without interference, they don't think that the president is about to fire Mueller, and they don't think that it's urgent that we act at this time.

I disagree. I think it's important that on a bipartisan basis we send a strong signal to the president that it's unwise for him to take any aggressive action that would interfere with this investigation.

BLITZER: Senator Coons, thanks for joining us.

COONS: Thank you.

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