CBS "Face the Nation" - Transcript: Russian Investigations

Interview

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Good morning, and welcome to FACE THE NATION. I'm Margaret Brennan.

We begin today with two congressional Republicans from South Carolina, Senator Tim Scott and Representative Trey Gowdy. Their new book, "Unified," tells the story of their close friendship and their hope to heal a divided country.

Welcome to both of you, gentlemen.

REP. TREY GOWDY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Thank you.

SEN. TIM SCOTT (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Thank you.

BRENNAN: I want to talk to you both about why you wrote this book, why you did it together, but I want to also ask about some of the news of the moment.

The special counsel did reveal this week that Trump campaign official Rick Gates, who is a cooperating witness in that investigation, knowingly had communications on more than one occasion during the campaign with a person the FBI believes had active ties to Russian intelligence.

Congressman, as a former prosecutor, what does this say to you?

GOWDY: It says that I'm glad we have Bob Mueller.

I'm glad we have an independent ball-and-strike caller. Congress has proven itself incapable of conducting serious investigations. And our best hope of finding out....

BRENNAN: You include your own committee, House Intelligence, on that?

GOWDY: Absolutely, not just House Intelligence.

Congressional investigations leak like the gossip girls. They -- I mean, they're terrible. And I would be telling you that if I were staying in Congress. They're just not serious. Serious investigations don't leak.

Serious investigations don't make up their mind first and then go in search of the evidence to validate your previously held convictions.

BRENNAN: Did your committee do that with clearing any collusion in the case of Russia?

GOWDY: I think Adam Schiff, in March of 2017, said he had evidence, more than circumstantial, but not direct. And, oh, by the way, there is no body of evidence that's more than circumstantial, but not direct.

But he said he had it of collusion. And we have been waiting for over a month now -- for over a year now for him to actually produce that evidence. That is not serious. And I'm hoping that either the Senate investigation or Mueller will be more objective.

BRENNAN: Senator, the person tied to Russian intelligence that we're talking about did work with Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort. You have been on record in the past saying that President Trump should not pardon Michael Flynn. Do you view Paul Manafort differently?

SCOTT: I do not. I think it's important that the White House be clear on this position as it relates to not treating either person differently.

Fact of the matter is, keeping the pardon off the table is a necessary part of the process. I would be disappointed if President Trump were to pardon either one of these individuals.

The good news is that the Mueller investigation continues. The better news is that the public will have as much information as necessary to draw clear conclusions. And, today, it only reinforces why it's important for us to make sure that the investigation continues until it gets to the end.

I hope that we get whether sooner than later, but the reality of it is that the more information we find out, the better and the more confident the American people will be in who we are as a nation.

BRENNAN: Does that mean you would support legislation to protect Bob Mueller from being fired?

SCOTT: I don't know that we need legislation to move forward. I don't know that there's a single senator that would come out in favor of stopping the investigation from going forward.

BRENNAN: Senator, you are on the Armed Services Committee. I want to ask you a bit about what we have heard from the president. He's been floating this idea of asking to use Pentagon funding to pay for this border wall.

SCOTT: Yes.

BRENNAN: Is that lawful?

SCOTT: Well, certainly, I think it would take act of Congress to make sure that we prioritize and appropriate the dollars for that objective.

The reality of it is, as commander in chief, he can certainly send signals through Secretary Mattis, have a conversation with Congress about where those dollars should be spent. The good news is, we're spending. We're providing more money to the military than we have in a very long time, more than a decade.

The unfortunate reality is that the priorities of the DOD have already been set. However, our southern border is very porous. The truth is that more folks came through our southern border that did not come from Mexico. It is certainly a national security issue.

I think Homeland, so far, is the place that we should find the resources for building the wall, not necessarily the DOD. But I see when it comes to -- before my committee make sure that we have enough information to make a decision.

BRENNAN: You're saying Congress would need to weigh in to reprogram those funds?

SCOTT: Absolutely.

BRENNAN: That's not something through executive authority you should...

(CROSSTALK)

SCOTT: We should not expect that from the president.

BRENNAN: I want to ask you about this book you wrote together.

SCOTT: Yes.

BRENNAN: Why did you write this?

GOWDY: I think he has a compelling life narrative. I find it inspirational from the moment we became friends.

I think his -- the story how he got where he is, is a story of hope that our whole country will benefit from. I think contrast is good. I think conflict is debilitating. I think it -- we're in a dangerous time in our history in terms of political discourse.

I think most Americans want most of the same things out of life. We just have a tendency to focus on the things that we don't agree on, as opposed to those that we do. But I think there's a hunger and a yearning for unity. And if you can find it with a handsome bald-headed guy from Charleston and middle-aged son of a doctor from the upstate of South Carolina, then I think everyone can benefit from unlikely friendships.

BRENNAN: Why it an unlikely friendship, Senator?

SCOTT: Well, we were raised very differently. We have different perspectives. While we're both Republicans, the reality of it is, we come down very differently on a lot of the issues.

I think about an affluent fellow from a doctor's house, a poor kid single-parent household. I think about the challenges of race in our state. We have a very provocative history on race in South Carolina. And the truth is that after the 2015 Mother Emanuel Church shooting, I found myself turning to a white guy in the aftermath.

It became clear to me that there is a chance to bridge real gaps in this country. And if that was an example of one real bridging of a gap after a racially motivated shooting in Charleston, South Carolina, led me to turn to a white guy that I did not know before I came to Congress, are there lessons within this friendship that can help our nation that seems to be so polarized in such conflict, mired in challenges, and sometimes heading towards tribalism?

If there's a way to bridge that gap, can we and should we tell that story? I think we can, I think we should, and we did.

BRENNAN: What did you think when you got that phone call that night of the shooting in Charleston?

GOWDY: Just what Tim said. We have a provocative history in our state when it comes to race.

My first thought was a spiritual thought. God, how could you let nine people be murdered, when all they wanted to do was go learn about you? And then what it would mean to a black man to know that they were murdered simply because of the color of their skin.

Just kind of a, oh, let's don't -- oh, lord, let's don't go here again in South Carolina. And the beautiful part was, his intention was to start a race war in our state. And it had exactly the opposite effect.

BRENNAN: The shooter's intention.

You have talked a lot about the incident in Charleston, and that really sort of inspiring you to sit down and issue this call for action. What are you asking the public for in this book?

SCOTT: I think, if you look at the polarization that exists in this country, we have to find a path back to being one nation.

I found that path through a horrific church shooting that provided me a chance to reflect on progress and pain. My family, I think of my grandfather, who passed away in 2016. He was unable to drink from the same water fountain for the vast majority of his life, unable to go to a restaurant, unable to walk on the same sidewalk, could not finish school beyond the third grade.

And for me to live out a part of his American dream, to be able to converse and to challenge other folks, and then, in the aftermath of a church shooting, think about all that history in my family, to turn to Trey was just a symbol of progress that I believe that all things are possible in this great nation.

I think it's perhaps one of the greatest national security issues we have in this country, that if we allow the polarization to continue in this country, those outside of this country that want to bring harm will eat, will feast on the division in this country and create more polarization.

The Russians did that during the 2016 election. They focused on the opportunity to sow seeds of discord. That only leads to an erosion of our foundation and makes us quite more vulnerable.

BRENNAN: Do you think that Donald Trump and his administration have deepened this divide? Have you see any signs of hope that they're helping to bridge it?

SCOTT: I will say that when I went to the president after the Charlottesville incident, he asked me, what could he do?

We were not on the same page as it relates to the history of race in this nation. But we found a common position on legislative remedies that could help people in distressed communities. The opportunity zones that we're talking about throughout this country, the president said that he would commit to supporting that legislation.

He did. It's now law. And now 50 million Americans may see reasons to breathe hopefully about the future because of that legislation that will bring more resources into distressed communities.

BRENNAN: After Charlottesville, you said the president is not a racist, but he is racially insensitive.

SCOTT: Yes.

BRENNAN: Is that still what you believe?

SCOTT: Absolutely. Yes, the president is not a racist. But is he racially insensitive? I think the answer is yes.

BRENNAN: You haven't seen an improvement in language or in actions by the Justice Department?

SCOTT: Well, I can't say whether or not the entire administration reflects his position.

I will say that he has been very positive on legislative remedies. I think if you follow the facts, what you will find is that unemployment rates within the African-American community at 6.9 percent haven't been this low in almost two decades. The Hispanic community hasn't been this low in almost two decades.

The fact is that the policy position of the administration is moving this country in the right direction economically. We still have to work on the tone and the rhetoric.

BRENNAN: Once again, we're seeing protests about the shooting of an unarmed black man and questions being raised about excessive force in the case of Stephon Clark.

And this question at the White House was responded to with the answer, "This is a local matter."

Do you think that these conversations need to be had at the federal level? Do you wish that they were, or is that not appropriate?

GOWDY: No, it's a national conversation.

I actually took the local matter to be -- maybe it's because I'm a prosecutor -- that it's a state crime, it's a local law enforcement matter from a criminal justice standpoint. But it's a national conversation.

Tim knows my bias -- I will put that word in quotes -- is toward law enforcement, as you would expect a prosecutor's to be. I am not oblivious to the fact that there are bad police officers, just like there are bad everything else.

He has helped me remarkably, not just him, but also other people of color in my life have helped me understand every interaction I have had with the police has been because I was speeding. I should have had an interaction with them. I have never been stopped by Capital Police, and I don't wear a member pin.

He's been stopped wearing a member pin. So, I am naive to believe that my life experience covers everyone. I have no idea what he sees when he sees blue lights. And I think he's benefited -- well, I know he has.

He calls the widows of fallen police officers before I call them in South Carolina. So, he gets the danger side of it, but he's also a black man who has had a very different relationship with law enforcement than I have.

So, you ask, why write the book? So we can talk to one another, find the things we have in common, instead of racing to the conflict, which is commercially successful, and you get a lot of clicks. It's just destroying our country.

BRENNAN: We have got to take a quick pause in the conversation. We will be right back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BRENNAN: We're back now for more with Senator Tim Scott and Congressman Trey Gowdy to talk about their new book, "Unified."

Congressman Gowdy, I have got to be honest. A lot of people in Washington, when they hear that you are issuing a call for unity, will say, he's been associated with two of the most divisive, politically heated probes in Washington, the probe into what happened in Benghazi and the most recent House Intelligence probe into Russian election meddling.

How do you reconcile those things?

GOWDY: I hear about the divisiveness. I just don't hear about it from my colleagues.

I hear about it a lot from people in your line of work, how divisive I am. And yet I don't have a fractured relationship with a single solitary Democrat that serves in the House.

So, conflict sells. It is much more commercially appealable to refer to something as hyper-partisan or deeply divisive. The reality is, with respect to Benghazi, I did everything I could to handle that like a normal investigation.

I was not hyper-focused on Secretary Clinton. Lots of other people were, including people in your -- with respect, in your line of work. It's not interesting enough to simply find out how our folks were rescued from the annex. If it didn't involve her, folks weren't interested in it.

So, out of 100 witnesses, one was named Clinton. And out of all the hearings we had, zero were about her e-mail, but yet that's the narrative that's been printed.

And it's one reason I can't wait to be out of politics, frankly.

(LAUGHTER)

GOWDY: Where the jury is a little more open-minded. They haven't made up their minds yet. Facts matter. And there's a referee that can say, you know what, there's no evidentiary support for that whatsoever. In politics, you can say it and get away with it.

BRENNAN: Well, you know, do you talk in the book, though, about the Benghazi investigation being personally difficult.

GOWDY: It was terrible.

BRENNAN: You actually, Senator, described it as probably the loneliness extended session of his life.

SCOTT: Let me just weight in very quickly.

Whether it's Russia or the Benghazi investigation, one thing that Trey tried to do in both situations was go after the truth, not after Hillary Clinton. And Republicans were unhappy with that.

He went after the truth. Democrats were unhappy because Hillary Clinton was attached to the conversation, and she had no choice but to be attached to it. It happened on her watch.

But on the Russia situation, the fact of the matter is, if you have listened to Trey Gowdy talk about how poorly the president's lawyer represented his position, there's no question that, if you're looking for a way to be partisan on the issue, you don't make those comments.

BRENNAN: You're referring there to John Dowd, former attorney?

SCOTT: If you're looking for the truth -- yes.

If you're looking for the truth, then you go where it leads. And there's no doubt that, if you look at the actual evidence on both of those situations, it is clear that Trey Gowdy that was looking for the truth.

And one of the reasons why I talk about that in the book, the Benghazi story, is because to watch the weight of the investigation on his face and on his shoulders and, frankly, on that hair that is now whiter than snow, it is because he did not want to be a partisan.

(LAUGHTER)

GOWDY: His objective was to be a prosecutor looking for the truth, and then present the evidence to the American people and let that jury decide.

BRENNAN: In reading this book, it sounds -- it's clear the affection you have for each other.

And, Congressman Gowdy, you seem very supportive of the senator and him staying in Washington, though you say you're going back home. People are going to ask the question of whether you are going to make a run for office.

I know you're not going to want to answer it, but, Congressman, should he run for president in 2020?

GOWDY: Oh,I don't know about 2020. I have run in two Republican primaries. Talk about lonely. That's the loneliest feeling in the world, running against an incumbent in a primary.

I would love to...

(CROSSTALK)

BRENNAN: So, you don't think that will happen for President Trump? He won't be primaried?

GOWDY: It may, but I don't think it's going to be Tim Scott. I would love for Tim Scott to run for president, whether it's 2024, whenever it fits his heart.

But he has a cheery, optimistic brand of conservatism that I think our country would benefit from. And, quite frankly, whether he won or not, our country would be better off hearing someone with his life story, the grandson of a man who couldn't read, picked cotton.

And then he grew up to pick out a seat in the United States House of Representatives. That's a story I wish my fellow citizens could hear. Whether he wins, I hope he runs.

BRENNAN: Senator?

SCOTT: I'm not even running for my homeowner association's presidency.

So, at this point, I thank God that I have had the privilege of serving the great people of South Carolina and this great nation. I'm a kid that got a second chance. I almost flunked out of high school as a freshman. My mother worked 16 hours a day to give me a reason to believe in this nation and having a great work ethic.

I am blessed already to fulfill a part of the mission that I think the good lord has sent me to fulfill. And as long as I continue to work hard for the people, whatever the good lord has next for me, I'm open to it.

BRENNAN: Senator, Congressman, thank you very much for sharing your story.

And just ahead, Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders.

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