CNN "The Lead with Jake Tapper" Transcript: Middle East

Interview

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TAPPER: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon, thanks.

Let's talk about foreign policy and national security, among other issues, with Republican Senator from Kentucky and presidential candidate Rand Paul. He also has a new book out called "Taking a Stand: Moving Beyond Partisan Politics to Unite America."

Senator, thanks so much for joining me. Very enjoyable book.

I want to get to some of the issues that you raise, but first on the national security front, what should the U.S. be doing about ISIS?

SEN. RAND PAUL (R), KENTUCKY: Well, I think we can do better. I think we also need to acknowledge that it's a very complicated situation.

If anybody had an easy answer, we'd have already come up with it. I think part of the problem is, is that there's a long war going on, a 1,000-year war between Sunni and Shiite, and that, while the Sunni towns that are being overtaken may ultimately grow to learn how to learn how bad ISIS is, they're comparing it with the Iranian- influenced Shiite militias, and they're making a judgment, at least right now, that they would just as soon fight the Shiites as they would ISIS.

So, they're not really united. During the surge, when we were successful, we had the Sunni chieftains on our side. This has been, if anything, really a political problem for a long time, that you have an Iraqi government that's not been very good at becoming a general government representing everyone. It's a government that seems to be of and for the Shiites. And that's the way Sunnis perceive it.

And so I'm not sure how there's a possibility of victory until you get Sunnis actively involved in the government, in the military and believing that ISIS is more of a threat than the government in Baghdad.

TAPPER: What would you do if you were commander in chief right now?

PAUL: Well, there's a couple things I would do.

One, I would promise the Kurds a homeland. They're the best fighters over there, and I would equip them directly with arms. I wouldn't have it go through the Shiite government. I think there's a little bit of tension between the two, between the Kurds and the Shiite government.

TAPPER: Is that worth alienating Turkey? Because they obviously are...

PAUL: Well, like I say, nothing is simple here.

TAPPER: Right.

PAUL: In order to do that, I wouldn't do that in a vacuum.

I wouldn't say, tomorrow, I'm recognizing the Kurds, but I would go to the Turks and I would say to the Turks and to the Kurds, I would say, what about the Kurds having a homeland within Iraq, and maybe within that little sliver of Syria up there near Kobani? But the Kurds would have to give up any pretension to wanting land in Turkey. It would have to be a three-way peace deal, where we actually had the Turks saying to the Kurds, you're giving up all claim to our land, and we're going to now have peace.

But the advantage to that is, I think you could get the Turks more involved.

TAPPER: Yes.

PAUL: I think the Turks have been too passive in this. And if the Turks were to bring up significant forces, I think it changes the outlook for ISIS.

TAPPER: So, you think that the Turks would start fighting ISIS?

PAUL: I think that's the goal. That would be the goal, is that if you could get peace between the Kurds and the Turks and get the Turks involved, then obviously the battle is much easier. But there's all kinds of goals that are easier said than done.

TAPPER: Yes, but what about the role of the U.S.? Do you think the U.S. -- a lot of Republicans have been talking more troops, or at least in a different role.

PAUL: Yes, I think that, ultimately, the victory comes from boots on the ground, but I think those boots on the ground need to be Arab boots on the ground.

If the Iraqis are not willing to fight for their country, I don't think I would send American G.I.s to do it if America -- if the Iraqis are not willing to fight for it. But part of the solution is also saying, we need to have a stable government in Syria. So part of the solution would be Assad going into exile and having a stable government, where it's the government of Syria vs. the bad guys of ISIS. Now you have 1,500 groups there fighting ISIS and you have got bad

people on both sides of the equation. So, it isn't very easy to do. And then the third part of this is, I would get the Saudis and the Qataris and I would tell them, look, you have grown rich off our petrodollars. Why don't you do something useful? And that's help us fight ISIS on the ground with your troops on the ground.

TAPPER: As you said, a lot easier said than done.

(LAUGHTER)

PAUL: Easier said than done.

TAPPER: Let's talk about your book a bit, because you write quite a bit about the NSA spying program and obviously you do more than write about it. This week, you were holding up the legislation, in a way, because of your objection to the bulk collection program of metadata, which is going to expire June 1.

I want to play some sound from some of your rivals in the Republican race. First is Jeb Bush yesterday and then the next one is Chris Christie today.

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TAPPER: Your response?

PAUL: Well, I think, for those who know their constitutional history, the Fourth Amendment is a big deal. John Adams said it was the spark that led to our revolution.

TAPPER: That has to do with search and seizure and having authority sign off on search and seizure.

PAUL: Exactly. But what the framers objected to was that British soldiers were writing the warrants and that they were general warrants.

[16:10:02]

They didn't have Jake Tapper's name on it or Rand Paul's name. They just had everybody, and the soldiers could go in anyone's house. This was a really big deal. And so the Fourth Amendment is a big deal, was to our framers, and still should be. So, if you have a warrant right now and it says Verizon on it, that to

me sounds like a general warrant. That sounds not very specific, and it sounds like you're collecting the records of everybody at Verizon. That's what was revealed by Snowden.

So, you now have a warrant that collects the information on millions and millions of Americans for whom there is no suspicion that they're a terrorist. And, in fact, the court recently, the court just below the Supreme Court, the appellate court, said that even the Patriot Act, which says that you can gather information if it's relevant to an investigation, said, how could it be relevant to an investigation in the sense that it's being collected before you even start your investigation?

So the court has said it's illegal. The president started this through executive order. I think the president ought to immediately stop it, because a court says now that it's illegal.

TAPPER: Let's take a listen to what the attorney general said today on CBS talking about your objections and what would happen if this bulk metadata program disappeared on June 1.

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LORETTA LYNCH, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: I think his fear is that we will lose important eyes on people who have made it clear that their mission is to harm American people here and abroad.

QUESTION: You think it makes America less safe?

LYNCH: I think that we run the risk of essentially being less safe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Why do you think that you are so -- you're not alone, but you're certainly in a minority when it comes to Democrats and Republicans supporting this. Why?

PAUL: Interestingly, though, when I was in the middle of the filibuster, I had seven Democrats and three or four Republicans come to the floor. So, 10 is not an insignificant number. And I think we would probably get...

TAPPER: It's still a minority.

PAUL: Excuse me?

TAPPER: It's still a minority. I mean...

PAUL: Well, I think we'd get 20 to 30, and I think it's growing.

I think, if you ask the American people, do you think the bulk collection of your records is something the government should do or shouldn't do, I think some polls show 70 percent to 80 percent of the American people think the government shouldn't be doing this. Also, I think it represents that there's a difference between outside

the Beltway and inside the Beltway. Once you get beyond Washington and you enter the rest of America, the rest of America's not so excited about this. In the Beltway, they lag 10 years. People up here are 10 years behind the times. And so they're still in another era.

Many of these people don't realize that your papers, people don't have papers anymore. We don't have a castle. We have got a cloud. Our papers aren't in the castle. Our papers are in a cloud. And we want them to be protected and we want them to be private. Particularly young people believe this.

TAPPER: All right.

The book is "Taking a Stand: Moving Beyond Partisan Politics to Unite America."

You write about a lot of issues of important to you, including expanding the tent of Republicans. I hope to have you on again. We can talk more about some of these issues.

Senator Rand Paul, thank you so much. We will see you on the campaign trail. Good luck out there.

PAUL: Thank you.

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