MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show"- Transcript: Interview with Todd Rutherford

Interview

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MADDOW: Members of the Senate today formed a receiving line for
Jennifer Pinckney. And one by one, the members came forward to pay their
respects. It was just an incredibly moving moment there on the Senate
floor today in South Carolina. That`s what happened in the South Carolina
Senate today.

Immediately after that same body, the Senate, gave final approval to
legislation that would remove the Confederate flag from the grounds of the
state capitol. The third and final vote today was 36-3 and they followed
it up with a receiving line with Clementa Pinckney`s widow.

Having passed the Senate, the legislation now crosses over to the
other house of the South Carolina legislature. It goes to the House. And
for a little while this afternoon it looked like the House would take it up
immediately and pass it as quickly as the Senate did. I mean, think about
how quickly the Senate moved.

The Senate took it up yesterday and passed it in final form today.
They are done. In the House, it looked for a while today like they might
also move that fast, especially when voted to consider it on a fast track.

They voted to avoid the committee process. Just put it straight to
the floor. That could put the House on schedule to move it tomorrow to
have it done by the day after that, to have the Confederate flag brought
down forever by Thursday of this week, by day after tomorrow. They were on
track to do that.

But then Republicans started adding amendments onto the bill that way
you would attach an anvil to a speeding car, then a millstone and then a
ton of bricks.

And in retrospect, maybe we should have known this was coming. You
might remember that just very shortly after the massacre, Republican
Governor Nikki Haley held that remarkable event in South Carolina. She
made this major political statement that now because of the massacre, it
was time for the Confederate flag to come down on the state capitol
grounds. It was this remarkable display of bipartisanship and unity. The
governor making the call next to the biggest political names in the state,
not only Republicans but also Democrats, the congressional delegations in
South Carolina. Both U.S. senators came home to South Carolina to be there
for that.

But not everyone was there. Even that day, one Republican in the
House told "The Courier", "I`m for leaving the flag where it is.
Absolutely. If I have to put 500 amendments on this thing to keep it
there, then I will do it."

Five hundred amendments if that`s what it takes. Well, it turns out
that`s how they are trying to stop it. As of tonight, 26 amendments have
been piled on it. Most of them by one Republican lawmaker.

According to the list that we got tonight, he`s offered amendments to
take down monuments, to put up monuments, to fly half a dozen different
flags from the old confederacy, he pledged to bring this debate to a
grinding halt with a cascade of amendments.

The question now in North Carolina is whether the House is going to
follow what the Senate did in the looming moral shadow of Senator
Pinckney`s death, and with the tacit support today of his widow. Whether
that will happen in the House or whether this group of Republicans in the
House will find a way to stop everything.

Joining us now is South Carolina House Minority Todd Rutherford.
Representative Rutherford is the top Democrat in the legislature.

Sir, thank you very much for helping us stay apprised to this story.
It`s nice to have you here.

STATE REP. TODD RUTHERFORD (D), SOUTH CAROLINA: Thank you for having
me.

MADDOW: So, we talked about it last night as a strategy. Am I right
to say that these amendments are the thing that conceivably could not just
slow down the process of taking down the flag but it could even stop it?

RUTHERFORD: You`re exactly right. One of the reasons why we had a
press conference this morning was to talk about the fact that we need a
clean bill. We need to make sure that not one single amendment passes
tomorrow, because that would delay the process.

What we are hoping is that tomorrow, we can get second reading on the
bill which we only need a majority for. And then on Thursday, we can get a
third reading and we need two thirds of that, just to meet with the
requirements of the statute, even I believe it`s unconstitutional.

I do believe that we are still on track to get it. I think the 26
amendments put up by Representative Mike Pitts to talk about everything
from the flag upside down on top of the dome to a nonbinding referendum
which are both unconstitutional, that those will be cast by the wayside and
we will be able to embrace Senator Pinckney`s widow the same way the Senate
did.

MADDOW: In terms of the process here. The representative you just
described added those more than 25 amendments today. Has the process of
suggesting amendments, adding amendments to the bill, proposed amendments,
is that process now over? Are we going to see more than 25 plus amendments
that we saw today? Is that process conceivably going to continue tomorrow?

RUTHERFORD: It is not over. It will continue tomorrow as long as we
are debating the bill. The only thing that can stop additional amendments
is the if we invoke cloture. Cloture will take the debate from what is 20
minutes per amendment per member, to three minutes for and three against
per amendment. It will stop any new amendments from being added.

I don`t anticipate doing that, however, I think a lot of us want to
hear the debate. We want to hear why it is that Representative Pitts
thinks this is necessary and why the flag should not come down. Most see
it as a symbol of hate. It is time for it to come down.

MADDOW: Do you think that he`s a one-man band at this point, or do
you think it`s going to be tough to get that 2/3 vote in the end?

RUTHERFORD: He will have several amendments which have some buy-in
from other Republicans. In fact, I was told one of the amendments had as
many as 50 Republicans on it. I don`t know that they are still there. But
I do know that at one point, there were up to 50 people. That`s still not
enough a majority. That`s still not up to sway the debate. And I can tell
you that the Republican leadership is working to make it a clean bill as
well.

MADDOW: That`s fascinating. South Carolina State Representative
Todd Rutherford, thanks for helping us understand that. Those partisan
contours are particularly interesting. Thanks a lot. I appreciate you
being here.

RUTHERFORD: Thank you.

MADDOW: This South Carolina process has been remarkable. Obviously
the state has been through hell and high water. But watching the Senate
move the way that they did, especially in an incredible moving way today
and now seeing it go into a different culture in the House, it`s
fascinating.

And what the representative just said there, yes, these are
Republicans trying to stop it but the Republican leadership is trying to
outmaneuver them and get this done, working with the Democrats. It`s a
fascinating dynamic.

South Carolina is going through something I think nobody could have
ever, ever anticipated in a million years.

All right. We`ll be back.

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